HADD training plan

Preston - Speed work is like adding the cherry on top when it comes to marathon training.

First you need the cake (base miles) and then some icing (slightly faster 80% / marathon pace work). If all goes well, then think about adding the cherry, but don't start adding cherries before you have baked and iced the cake. Any baker would be able to tell you that! 

preston, I would see how you feel after weeks 6-10. I would think if you were ok at this point, I would add another 80% run. So weeks 11-15 would include 2x(90mins incl 70mins@80%). Again, if this became comfy then the progression would be to make one of these 83%. I like to progress the 80% to 83% in marathon training because the pace of this run roughly equates to eventual marathon pace. This run is a tough one though, and as such it may be necessary to play the other 90min run by ear, ie. back-off if necessary and just make it easy/steady.

Did you spot my question about long runs?

Brian - just fed my times in to the Mcmillan calculator and these are the times for HM and marathon (my PB for HM is 2:07)

Dist        PB        HM      Mara
3km     15:16        2:04    4:21
5km     27:20        2:06    4:26
10km   58:19        2:10    4:33
10m    1:35:42      2:07    4:28

As yet I'm not aiming for Marathons but concentrating on Halfs - target time less than 2 hours

Keir, Yes indeedy. The problem arises when you start eating it

BD2000, very sensible target. I would put money on you breaking 2 hours.

My glutes are killing me. Every time I go back in the gym, I say to myself 'ease in gently'. And every time I end up aching for a few days. Fartlek only today after a really good warm-up. Cross country on Sunday.

Keir wrote (see)

Preston - Speed work is like adding the cherry on top when it comes to marathon training.

First you need the cake (base miles) and then some icing (slightly faster 80% / marathon pace work). If all goes well, then think about adding the cherry, but don't start adding cherries before you have baked and iced the cake. Any baker would be able to tell you that! 

That's such a brilliant way of summing the whole thing up, Keir. Love it!!

Sorry, been neglecting this thread a bit last week

Huge congrats are in order to Gaz and Dr. Dan. Well done, boys

Not much to report from me - I jogged an abysmal (6min PW anyone?) 10k on Sunday but as I was coming down with a cold this wasn't a huge surprise. Feeling better now but sticking to 70% runs only this week until I beat the lurgy.

BD: like others said, those numbers mean zilch. If you end up with too much drift just start a bit slower. I usually run the first 2 or 3 miles at 60-65% to warm up and get very little drift that way.

Preston: I had pretty good success with a mix of Hadd and P&D for my autumn marathon. I used Hadd for base training and then launched immediately into the 12week P&D version, ran most runs around 70-75% and combined the Hadd LT runs with the medium long P&D ones which meant I got some extra MP work in. There's not much speedwork in P&D so I kept those sessions in .

Brian,  I did see your question re: long runs and responded, but I think it got lost in all the other posts.

For the marathon I did 6 20 mile plus long runs, a couple of these were progressive runs (10 miles slow and 10 miles at marathon pace). Also Did plenty of 15mile plus long runs and  during the week did runs of up to 10 miles. I also did tempo/speedwork as runners world schedule, which in hindsight I think I would have been better doing longer runs during the week.

Planning to initially do 2hr long run building up to 2hrs 30 mins after a number of weeks, a start with a long run of 90 minutes plus during week.

Thanks Chick. I find most things in life can be compared to eating cake or picking cherries  Get better soon.

Finding the conversation about how to convert HADD into a P&D plan really interesting. 90min, 11miles at 8.10m/m between 70-75% in the dark and wet this morning. As always, the hardest bit is getting out of bed. 

preston, nothing wrong with the long run stuff then. Personally I've never tackled more than the last 5M of a 20 at MP. 10 and 10 must be tough! Maybe too tough.....

I tend to split the progressive long run into 3, generally 5M easy (normally around 65-70%), 10M moderate (75%ish) and 5M near to target MP (80%+). Another useful variation is 2M hard/easys. These are 5x(2M easy/2M at MP).

If target races are Half Marathons (lets say for the next 2 to 3 years) rather than Marathons is 30 mile a week enough with the longest run at 10 to 12 miles?

Considerations for HM's only is the actual time I'm limited to with training. I note for the big boys and girls running marathons it's 50 miles plus (as per the HADD document) but quite honestly I just can't do that. I recognise that with a lower mileage it will take me longer to squeeze everything out of the tube but I'm prepared for that. Bear in mind each run I do is 70+ mins.

Keir wrote (see)

Thanks Chick. I find most things in life can be compared to eating cake or picking cherries  Get better soon.

Finding the conversation about how to convert HADD into a P&D plan really interesting. 90min, 11miles at 8.10m/m between 70-75% in the dark and wet this morning. As always, the hardest bit is getting out of bed. 

Agree, the CNBA fairy has huge persuasion powers at the mo!

Hi Chick, do you don't have a link to the P&D 12 week plan do you. I have a copy of the 18/70 plan.

Kier, I like you cake analagy, agree with your comments re: speedwork. I think I am better concentrating on base and then the icing for this marathon.

Brian, I think in hindsight the 10 mile easy/10 mile MP run, probably was too hard. I like the look of your progressive runs, will give both a try.

PM me your e-mail address Preston and I mail you a scan. Which one are you after? 12 weeks 55-70 miles or the 70+ version?

Lots of good advice as always. My poor run of training has continued with a bruised/strained foot so indoor cycling at the gym and had a go at the cross trainer but I dont really get on with that and I could feel my foot with it.

JB hope you shake the foot injury.  I'm on the bench too as the knee/VMO is still a niggle.

So I've fiddled with the plan and it now looks like

(1) 3 more weeks of base with just 70% and 75% runs, building to 50 miles pw

(2) then 6 weeks base including one sub-LT run at 80%, getting to 70 miles pw, with a one week cut-back

(3) then I'm switching to an amended P&D 12wk up to 85 miles....2 x recoveries at 70%, 2 x medium runs one a 70%, the other 75%, long run at 70% unless MP finish is specified (at 83%), one subLT (which I hope to nudge up over time), and finally one non-Hadd tempo (club race) per week (replaced with a 70% jog in the MP long run weeks).

...hope the shins can handle it

Seeing the physio tomorrow so managed to hold off the running to then.

Hope it goes well Spen. I was wondering how you run today (well, yesterday now) had gone.

Sounds like a good plan Teknik (and one I might copy). 

JB, Good luck with the foot rehab. Take it easy for a couple of days, then stick to ~ 70% for a while.

Teknik, hello. Hope the knee niggle disappears. Good medium term planning - Is it VLM you are aiming for?

Spen, good luck at the fizz.

Chick, sensible head on, running easy. Hope the woman-flu abates.

Gym again this morning. Managed to do a little bit more than Monday, and the glutes are less achy now. Raining heavily though, lunchtime run could be a bit of a labour of love.

Well the fizz seems to think i just had a muscle strain!

Spen - prior to HADD I had lots of niggles and within an 18 week training period I had 4 visits to the fizz (all muscle knots / pulls related to training at too high HR and I think I was building up too much lactate and not letting the 'slow' muscle fibres build enough)

Since starting HADD I've had no injuries in 12 weeks

BD2000: don't jinx it - touch wood, quick!! .

Hope those injuries heal quickly JB and Spen.

Tek: Plan looks perfect to me. Tempted by the 85mile plan myself. Although I tend to break down on 80+ mile weeks. Perhaps with a stronger base it can work. Otherwise I'll mess around with the schedule to peak @ 80 miles.

10 miles @ 70% done this morning in strong winds resulting in pretty uneven splits. HR stayed rock solid though. I think I'm finally getting the hang of running to feel. My HR is a lot more stable on feel than it is by watch.