how do i get that sub 40 10k ???

16 messages
02/08/2011 at 13:06

TO CUT A LONG STORY SHORT I WENT FROM FAT BOY TO FIT BOY AFTER TAKING UP RUNNING 7 YEARS AGO, AFTER COMPLETING THE LONDON MARATHON (5.04) I WAS HOOKED AND COULDNT WAIT TO FIND ANOTHER RACE AND SO LIKE MANY OTHERS I TRY TO RACE EVERY SUNDAY IF POSSIBLE.

NOT ONLY DID I BECOME ADDICTED TO RACING BUT ALSO THE MARATHON AND I HAVE NOW RUN LONDON 6 TIMES (3.40 PB) AS WELL AS PARIS AND BRIGHTON, MY FIRST 10K WAS 65.12 AND MY PB IS 40.42 SET IN 2007 BUT I HAVE NEVER GOT CLOSE TO THAT AGAIN  MY PROBLEM IS I START MARATHON TRAINING IN DECEMBER AND FINISH IN APRIL IT THEN TAKES ME A FEW MONTHS TO ADAPT BACK TO A FASTER PACE, BY SEPTEMBER I AM RUNNING ABOUT 43 MINS FOR A 10K BUT BY OCTOBER I  THEN START LOOKING FOR LONGER DISTANCES TO PREPARE ME FOR MARATHON TRAINING !

I KEEP SAYING THAT I WILL GIVE THE MARATHON A MISS ONE YEAR TO CONCENTRATE ON SPEED AND GET THAT SUB 40 I SO DESIRE BUT I HAVE GONE AND DONE IT AGAIN AND IN 2012 I WILL BE RUNNING BRIGHTON AND LONDON

SO THE PLAN IS TO GO FOR IT AND TRY TO HIT THE SUB 40 IN OCTOBER , I HAVE STARTED RUNNING A FARTLEK 10K EVERY WEDS AND A FARTLEK 5K EVERY FRI FOR THE PAST 3 WEEKS AND MY TIMES HAVE IMPROVED EACH WEEK, I HAVE 3 HALF MARATHONS IN AUGUST THEN WILL LOOK AT 10K RACES FROM SEPTEMBER ONWARDS.

CAN ANYONE SUGGEST A 10K PLAN OR SCHEDULE THAT WILL HELP ME ?? I AM RESTRICTED TO THE TREADMILL IN THE WEEK DUE TO WORK AND USE THE ROAD AT WEEKENDS IF IM NOT RACING...

 THANKS MARK

02/08/2011 at 14:53

Perhaps you should substitute one of your fartlek sessions for an interval session, say 5 x 1k at your target 10k pace to start with, working up to 10-12 reps. Add one rep a week, until your running eight, then hold this for 2 weeks before increasing again.

So, say 5 x 1k in 3:59 minutes with 2 minutes recoveries would be a decent session.

If you want to run a target time, run reps at your target pace. The treadmill is probably best for keeping consistent pacing, so you could run this session during the week. The treadmill will also lessen the pounding on your legs enabling quicker recoveries.

Dont sacrifice long runs - for the 10k, a long run of 10 miles is sufficient and will keep your endurance ticking over until you resume marathon running. 

Perhaps every third week subsitute the interval session for a "20:20" tempo session - run for 20 minutes at a pace 20 seconds per mile slower than target 10k pace.

Every fourth week, dont do any speedwork, but let your body recover.

02/08/2011 at 16:43

To improve your 10k it is very important that you have a tempo in your training. Tempo and long run are the two must sessions. I think you need another key session in there but it depends on the person what. We periodise between strength drills and faster stuff. Hill reps are a good start.

Pad this all out with easy running. Stick a parkrun in there once a month as a barometer of where you are.

02/08/2011 at 21:52

I would have to disagree Tommy. Didn't Peter Snell produce a report outlining the benefits of interval training over tempo training on V02 max? Besides a non-linear periodisation will be more effective for the vast majority of runners, except for the elites

Simply put, Mark should focus on tempo, intervals and long runs on a two week cycle, rather than only periodically working on certain sessions as you suggest.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0004.htm

Anyway, tempo running is still below 10k pace, since mark is going to be running 4:15's per kilometre in his tempo runs and not know how 3:59's feel, especially on race day.

Since he has a strong endurance base already with marathon training, long runs will be of limited benefit in 10k's and a moderately long run would be sufficient. In fact, any run over the 10k distance may count as a long run for the 10k racer. 

Parkrun's may be a good idea periodically to stay motivated, but Mark may already have a decent barometer of where he's at by noting his performance in interval sessions.

Hill reps may be useful may be useful in developing explosive speed (short, hard pace) or endurance (long, moderate pace) but learning race pace is far more important than accessory sessions which lack a real objective element - how do you judge what speed to run in a hill session?

02/08/2011 at 22:41
Simples join a club
02/08/2011 at 23:43

What are your other PB's?  What's your current training like aside from the 2 fartleks?  How do you train for a marathon?

Initial thoughts are that  you do a lot of races - do you race these (go all out) or use some of them as training runs?  I'd guess that you probably do a lot of one paced running?  Recovery, easy, steady, marathon pace, tempo/threshold, 10k and 5k pace should all have their place in a training plan to maximise your performance.  Incidentally it's perfectly possible to run a 10k PB at this level in marathon training and a sub 41 10k indicates much better than 3:40 marathon potential.  It's possible but higly unlikely that lack of speed will be your main issue.

03/08/2011 at 08:19

Mark, I know you mention marathon training, but how much mileage does that involve?

If you're doing decent mileage ie 50-70 than fair enough, but if you're only doing 20-30miles a week, then a simple increase in mileage will guarantee a faster 10k without even doing any fancy tempo, speedwork etc.

03/08/2011 at 09:41

Mark - you have identified the problem, yet repeat the same pattern.  It's like Bart Simpson and the electrified cupcake.  That's just daft.

It seems highly unlikely adopting a "perfect" mix of workouts will knock that much time off in the time you have allotted if previously you only got down to about 43 minutes.  Particularly if you do counterproductive things like race 3 half marathons in the month before looking for a good 10k.

Having said that it seems strange that your marathon training doesn't allow you to get fairly close to your 10k PB.  That suggests there is something very wrong with that.  

03/08/2011 at 10:27

Good question!

 First thing is that sub 40 is a big land mark for club runners for a reason. It is tough! I normally race at around a 36 min 10k but the 40 min 10 k in training last night still hurt like hell. Here are a few points on your Original Post:

Treadmill running is never as good as road running. There is no way I would do enough miles to do a 40 min 10k on treadmiles alone. You need to find a way to hit the streets or trails in the week. You May need to get a headtorch in the winter.

Your 3 x half marathons in a month seems like a lot. With all that racing (plus a couple of days taper) I wonder where the training fits in?

This might sound obvious but you need to run each race KM in sub 4 mins. If you do the opening k in 4.10 then you need to find 10 secs somewhere... which means running a k in 3.50... which is 38.20 speed... which will hurt.

For 10 k racing you need to start fast (see above) which means a big warm up. 20 mins is the absolute minimum. I run 40 mins. Jogging round the car park is not enough. I go out to the 2k mark to do some stretching and run and back.

For my own racing, I don't have much speed so I can pretty much double my 5 k time to work out my 10k time. The suggestion above to do some park run events is a good one.

 You dont mention your total mileage, and this is probably the most important bit. It is hard to run sub 40 mins on less than 40 miles running a week. Of course everyone will have shortcuts and magic training sessions to do it on less than that, but without a coach /club / track it will be hard ot motivate yourself to do the hard sessions.

 Good luck. It will be an amazing feeling when you crack it.

03/08/2011 at 11:16
This forum looks v v useful ! I have a similar prob. I did Brighton mara in 3:38 and London a week later at 3:42 and have been trying to get my 10k time down since May, but it is proving v difficult. I do 3 X 7or 8 mile easy 1 X 11-14 mile easy and a tempo or an intervals once a week. Total 38 - 49 miles per week. My PB is pretty slow 44.28 about 4 years ago ! I was getting to the stage where I could do 6 X 800metre intervals at 6.30 pace in June, but then went on hols and have taken a step back . Things seem to be improving now, but I just feel a bit stuck in a rut. My target race for getting to 42 is 17th Sept. Any advice for a kick up the arse gratefully received.
Edited: 03/08/2011 at 11:25
03/08/2011 at 12:31

This might be a little left field, but I spent ages never being able to crack sub 45 and tried intervals/tempo and all sorts of plans. What I worked out in the end was I always run faster on race day, so I started doing at least one 10k race a month and its sort of become my on the job tempo training since when im on my own I seem to lack the push. From april last year I started doing 1 or 2 local 10k races a month and by last june I cracked 45 mins (at the '10 dorney dash), and as part of my marathon training kept doing at least one a month and found each time I was getting quicker and quicker with all my progress and confidence coming on race day. Whilst there are some multi-terrains that I might have only run 43 mins in, I've steadily been edging towards sub 40 (using the runbritain scores where they grade races by difficulty and conditions, I've been able to chart progress. And now as im regularly doing the same races each year, you can see progress even easier). Im going to start doing the local 5k park runs whenever I can from now on as although its a slower course, I think my personal progress only seems to come when racing others.

So with more and more local 10k races coming up, maybe schedule some other ones in and use them for training as well? I've just recently come back from injury with no running for 6 weeks, all my training runs for 10k were around 45 mins so I was bit depressed, yet this past saturday at the '11 dorney dash I ran a 40:54 and completely surprised by myself. 

The runners world event guide is really useful. You can find all races of 10k within a 10 mile distance of where you live for example. 

03/08/2011 at 12:54

Wayne, that sounds like a good idea. By golly, I'm going to do it. I'm in central London, so there're loads of 10ks. Thanks very much !

07/08/2011 at 16:30

many thanks to all who have messaged me and i have taken on board all the advice.

wayne hit the nail on the head with more 10k races ... in 2007 when i was on top form and so close to a sub 40 i was racing 10k almost every week and like so many others i push myself a bit more in races, so the answer was there in my face .... reduce the continuous longer distances and running half marathons almost every week and get back to 10k races and push myself.

07/08/2011 at 19:08

I see a lot of discussions like this here someone trying to get  fast in all distances from 5k to marathon. To be honest thats not going to happen easly if at all.Just because it all requires running does not mean they are not different disciplines. When someone like Mo Farah is only now thinking about running marathons and has only one win at HM distance that should give you an idea of how hard it is to train across the board successfully. True it is hard to stick to a only a few distances when your not getting paid and the chances of winning is slim if not impossible, but dont beat yourself up if you can get the time you want.

Looking at how you race I would just race less. Keep to the basics, Easy, Long, Recovery. Steady state, Tempo, Tempo interval. Leave speed work for once or twice a month with a 5k. 

One other thing fartleks are not that long they are simply a way of playing while you run an easy session.

A bit of "speed play" between one tree and that lamp post.

Have fun.

3 half marathons in one month sheesh!

Someone get this man a sofa!

07/08/2011 at 19:11

I meant to say can't not can.

Beating yourself up if you can get the time you want is odd if not just kinky

time for a run i think

07/08/2011 at 20:05
I'd have to simply say work out your main goal - if its a sub 40, then you simply have to aim for that and just run the marathons for 'fun'.

As we get older, these time limits get harder to reach, if I was in your position I'd want to get that sub 40 first and foremost, then you can enjoy the rest of your running, you may regret it if you just continue as is.

You shouldn't have to put the marathons on hold, you know you can finish them, that's all that matters if you crack sub 40, you never know, you may do even better in the marathons once you've achieved this.

Get your plan mapped out and good luck!

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