Jason George 4 - you are clearly capable of sub 3 but your last post gives the game away.
I did my first marathon in 3:12 at the age of 50 and got my first sub 3, five years later.
Why does your post give it away? Because you blame the hotel for the breakfast, whereas I take my breakfast with me and have it in the hotel room and it is the same breakfast I always have.
"Iso-gelled out of my eyeballs" - I practise my fuelling in my training runs and I never change it for the race.
It is also said that marathon running requires physical changes to your body that can take some years of marathon training before you are at your best.
I personally wouldn't do a 20 mile race only 4 weeks from the marathon.
Pay attention to these details and I am sure you will achieve it,
Thanks for the vote of confidence One Gear, i take on board all of the points you have made. I meticulously planned the breakfast before the Mablethorpe as we stopped in a caravan and the fuelling beforehand on the long runs and though i had it spot on. On the day, my point regarding the gels was that I had ended up taking extra on board just to complete the course!
Most of the schedules seem to peak at Wk 13 (of a 16 Wk programme) with the longest run of about 22-23 at about 10% plus on target MP. As I said I felt amazing after this and honestly believed it was in the bag thereafter. Peaked too soon????
I have read that it can take a few years to reach your M potential. I just feel as though i had gone backwards after training harder and clearly getting stronger and faster!
XC season is nearly upon me (5 weeks) so will get a good winter of aerobic endurance under my belt, before the build up for the London next year.
How soon do you think i should get back out on the longer runs? I would like to keep up my LR endurance and get back into 16m easy runs in about 4 weeks and up until Xmas concentrate on shorter Parkrun type goals. Not sure if i mentioned but i am a Vet 40 (42).
Hi Jason - normally what I would be doing now is base mileage this would typically be 3 hard weeks and one easy.
The hard weeks would be in the 40 to 50 miles per week and within this I would cycle my long runs 16, 18, 20.
So a typical months running would be as follows:
Long run 16 total miles 40
" 18 " 44
" 20 " 50
" 10 " 30
That gives a very good base for when the training proper starts after Christmas.
Other than London I do almost no races these days but my long training runs are at a much faster pace than usually recommended.
So from this you can see that my advice would be to get back into those 16 m plus runs from here in.
Whoaaaaa Jason!!! - when I said my long runs were faster than recommended I didn't mean that fast. Most schedules even for sub 3 would say the LSRs should be around the 8 to 9 m/m. Mine would come in at about 7:30 m/m.
If you think about it 6:40 is sub 3 marathon race pace! There is no way I could do that in training and I think you will struggle.
One other thing that I think is important is to find a track session once a week. Something a bit different and helps with basic speed. For me that was particularly important as I only have "One Gear" - for you maybe less so. Keep posting will be interesting to see how you progress.
Understood! Been to the track tonight to catch up with the guys! I was itching to get into a 6x1m sesh but maybe in a couple of weeks. Our Tue sessions are typically 4-6 x 1m 3-5 2k or 5-7 1k sessions with 1-2 mins recovery. Normally at c5:20 pace or below (I train with some quick guys!!).
Thu club sessions are normally a tempo at 10k / HM Pace between 3-6m depending on what is going on at the weekend i.e. Parkruns or XC.
In a nutshell I get in three key sessions a week, our bread and butter, everything else is at recovery pace.
Excuse my ignorance but unless I continue to improve my speed over the longer runs could I still fall short in the Marathon? A running friend only runs up to 10k’s but runs a regular weekend long route of 18m at 6:20 pace!!! I know a different class altogether (he’s sub 34 10k!) but is it all relative?
Will keep posting now I seem to have the ‘ear’ of someone in the know!
Would also be interested to hear from anyone else who has any supporting, conflicting or radical training advice / tactic! I am super psyched, primed and ready to go!!
A classic track session is Yassoo 800s. If you can do repeat 800s - say 8 to10 with recovery in between each one - at sub 3 minutes you have the basic speed for a sub 3.
From what you say you are well under that, so it seems that you need to get that endurance up to tough out the last six miles.
There are people who advocate doing marathon race pace for part of the long runs but not for all of it.
Other than the track sessions I don't do a single mile at race pace - other than on the day!
The most "hardcore" my training has got was before London 2012 and for one "typical" week this was:
61.33 miles @ 7:12 mm with 6822 ft ascent and 6762 descent. The long run that week was 16 miles @ 7:23 mm and I ran 6 times that week
How I wish I had your basic speed. My half pb is 1:27 and I can only just scrape under 40 minutes for a 10k.
Start toughening up your body with those regular long runs and sub 3 is a nailed on cert.
I would gladly swap a bit of speed for the ability to sustain a decent pace over the last six! I'll keep posting on the progress particulaly on the run up to London 2014.
Interesting discussion. I seem to be in the same position in that i have a 1.27 half and just scrape a sub 40 10k and about to embark on training for my first marathon.
My plan (which is based on nothing in particular) was to slowly build myself up starting with 16 miler next week and adding 0.5 miles eack week. With a few easy weeks in between I should have hit 20 by xmas. I was then going to pick up the last 4 weeks of a marathon training plan and cover it twice and start incorporating marathon paces into my long runs. Like one gear says, my lsr (and most other mileage) will be 8mm or below.
If that all goes well then I may revise my target to sub 3.
Jason- IMO, your friend runs his lsr way too fast. I remember reading the article on Martin Rees for example and even his long runs were 6.40-7mm. If you race your training you wont perform in the race, if you even make the start line.
Hi DT19, good comments again; i personally benefit from the structure of following a plan (14-16 wks) for a Marathon. I like to set my stall out and before hand and define my workouts Interval / Tempo and LR well in advance. Dont get me wrong i use my instinct as well and ease up / pull back dependant on how i feel on the day.
For Mablethorpe i followed a long run schedule as follows. Also included are some of my comments from the day's training diary. Anal maybe, ex forces tho!!!
What are your thoughts on a mid week long ish run? For Mablethorpe this was a change from my VLM 13 schedule and i did a pyramid and increased to 13m midweek at about Wk8 and then back down again towards Wk 14.
Jason- just reading through that above. Two things stand out to me that I am planning differently, though at the minute this is based on nothing more than my opinion.
1. When i introduce MP into long runs i am going to try and move it about as opposed to just put it in second half of run and also maybe do some progression runs.
2. The end of your training cycle (i am not sure how close to race day it was) but unless i am reading it wrong, you really ramped things up doing 22/23 milers the whole way at nearly MP? I dont think i will go beyond 10-12 miles at MP at any point.
Re midweek- i am in a fortunate position in that i have an excess of annual leave so as of next week 2 of every 3 weeks ish i am going to take a day off work and do my long long run in the am. My hope until xmas is to maintain the rest of my current schedule ie long run sunday upto 12 miles, tempo, track session and 1-2 easy runs.
Once that luxury is over i think I will be doing my big run on the weekend and then a 10-12 miler midweek.
Hi, the 23m was at the end of wk13 so 3 weeks before, i then did 15 pretty much at MP and then 10 then the following Sunday.
I am sensing a common theme from the feedback that i may be trying to hard and taking too much out of myself. Even if i feel great the clock never lies!
Interestingly enough i thought i suffered before London earlier in the year from not doing enough long runs at pace! i did 4-5 20's with a 23 the same length of time away from race day but the quickest one was done at probably 7:30 pace. That was partialy due to the crappy weather though. There was also no long mid week run, and i missed out on a sub 3 by 99 seconds.
I feel i am getting a good measure of quality and quantitiy. Good shout regarding mixing the MP segments of the long runs.......... tbh the gear change from 10 x 8min miling to 10 x 6:45min miling felt like you were sprinting!
Well as I have said I have read around the topic but never trained for one, however weeks 13 and 14, whilst you might not have directly felt it, must have taken a lot out of you.
Yeah, i can imagine just turning a corner and upping your pace by that amount would be noticeable, hence why i think progrression runs would help, or planning the run so that you turn on MP just off a downhil-flat section so that the legs are already turning over nicely.
Progression runs could be the future! Which Marathon are you looking at?
Returning back to the original post, I would try loosely basing a plan on P&D with January base building on 4 weekday runs of around 8 to 10 miles building one mid week run up to 15 with an LSR of between 15 and 22 miles. February adding speed work into Tuesday and either Thursday or Fridays sessions. March adding mp sessions into LSR's. April taper time and recover.
Jason-I have a place in London next year.
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