Minimum weekly mileage for sub 3 marathon

Just a quick update for those that provided advice and have an interest in how this is going. I have now had a couple of months following this plan and a race to judge progress.

I’ve followed the advice and have built steadily up to 40 miles per week doing up to 6 runs a week. No more cross training, just running. Over the period the most interesting change for me is that I have had zero injuries that prevented training, so my worries about injury risk at higher mileage appeared wrong. I am not doing much pace work and this I think was reflected in my latest half, where I did a comfortable(ish!) 1:30:20. I will worry about pace later in the year, although park runs haven’t changed and I am around PB time most weeks. At the moment training looks like this:

M – 4 mile easy, Tu – 8 mile tempo (~7 min mile), W – 4 mile easy, Th – 4 mile easy, F – Rest, Sa – 2.5 mile park run (~6 min mile), Su – 15 mile easy (~8 min mile)

I’m planning to steadily increase mileage again and have a 20 mile race in a month and a marathon race in about 10 weeks. That is where I hope the new training will really show a difference and I’ll give an update on what happens!

Hi Rob, sounds like things are going well and the plan looks pretty sensible.  If you now feel like you're at the stage where you can progress things a bit (and the lack of injury niggles is always a welcome thing!) then I would suggest one of the best places to increase mileage would be on your Thursday run.  At present things look a little unbalanced since you have three days in a row of either easy running or rest.  It doesn't need to be anything too drastic but given that you're up to 15 miles for the LR I don't think there would be any harm in taking the Thursday run up to something like 7 or 8 miles, all done at an easy pace.  If you keep Tuesday's run as a tempo run, you could then build up Thursday to be a "semi-long" run to support the weekly long run, building up to 12 miles or so over the next 6-7 weeks before taper.

This was really interesting reading for me. I’m also hoping to do a ‘low mileage’ 3 hour marathon in May. I’ve been running for about 18 months, averaging 15 miles per week over that time. Over the last 4-5 months I’ve been averaging around 23 miles per week, and by the time of the marathon (if training goes to plan) I’ll have done an average of 28 miles per week Jan to May. I think my longest week will be about 35 miles (i.e. a 20 miler and a couple of shorter runs).

No idea at this stage whether that will be enough to get me under 3 hours, but that’s the target/hope. Possibly I am kidding myself, but we will see!

RicF wrote (see)

I've done this low mileage marathon thing myself. One year I managed a sub 3 off around 30/week but 6 months later beat that with a 2:46 averaging 18.5/week. I should add that I cycled 7 miles each way to work each day. The running was made up of one long run a week at 7:15 min mile pace and 2 speed sessions which was 5 x 3mins almost full out effort with 1 min recovery. I've also run over 100mpw but personally found that anything over 50mpw made no difference at all.

this is surely a bonkers post.  18.5miles of actual running giving a 2:46 marathon?

5x3mins with 1min recovery? So perhaps 2miles of efforts?

Can only imagine you banked a great deal of fitness from your 50-100mile week days, and still had it in your system so got away with much less running later on.

To find no difference in race times between 50 miles a week and 100 is bizarre, and something else must have been up there.

ag359 wrote (see)

This was really interesting reading for me. I’m also hoping to do a ‘low mileage’ 3 hour marathon in May. I’ve been running for about 18 months, averaging 15 miles per week over that time. Over the last 4-5 months I’ve been averaging around 23 miles per week, and by the time of the marathon (if training goes to plan) I’ll have done an average of 28 miles per week Jan to May. I think my longest week will be about 35 miles (i.e. a 20 miler and a couple of shorter runs).

No idea at this stage whether that will be enough to get me under 3 hours, but that’s the target/hope. Possibly I am kidding myself, but we will see!

chubby bloke wrote (see)

ag359 wrote (see)

This was really interesting reading for me. I’m also hoping to do a ‘low mileage’ 3 hour marathon in May. I’ve been running for about 18 months, averaging 15 miles per week over that time. Over the last 4-5 months I’ve been averaging around 23 miles per week, and by the time of the marathon (if training goes to plan) I’ll have done an average of 28 miles per week Jan to May. I think my longest week will be about 35 miles (i.e. a 20 miler and a couple of shorter runs).

No idea at this stage whether that will be enough to get me under 3 hours, but that’s the target/hope. Possibly I am kidding myself, but we will see!

Only possibly?

chubby bloke wrote (see)

ag359 wrote (see)

This was really interesting reading for me. I’m also hoping to do a ‘low mileage’ 3 hour marathon in May. I’ve been running for about 18 months, averaging 15 miles per week over that time. Over the last 4-5 months I’ve been averaging around 23 miles per week, and by the time of the marathon (if training goes to plan) I’ll have done an average of 28 miles per week Jan to May. I think my longest week will be about 35 miles (i.e. a 20 miler and a couple of shorter runs).

No idea at this stage whether that will be enough to get me under 3 hours, but that’s the target/hope. Possibly I am kidding myself, but we will see!

Only possibly?

Fair enough! Fully expect to be wrong, but if you don't try these things...

My longest run to date was 15 miles in 1.50 fairly comfortably, but still some work to do. 11 weeks left!

It really depends on how fit you are before you start your training.

The real secret behind breaking 3hrs is to get your natural speed developed so that you can regularly do well in 10k races.

If you can run low 37min or 36min for the 10k then you are in great shape.

The maximum mileage that will be required to follow a 3hr schedule is around 50miles a week, but that is a quality 50miles not just running at your chosen pace.

Obviously the long run is very important with training runs approaching 22-23miles at around 7minute pace.

But do not neglect your speed session and enter 10ks regularly because breaking 3hrs requires both speed and endurance.

Its a fine balance, because running 26miles at 6-50 pace requires conditioning and leg speed.

Neglect your 10k and those last few miles of the marathon will be hard but training well with plenty of long runs which develops endurance and have speed in your legs to run long at 7minute pace is the answer for success.   

Another quick update for you.

Mileage is now up to 46 miles:  M – 4 mile easy, Tu – 8 mile tempo (~7 min mile), W – 4 mile easy, Th – 8 mile easy, F – Rest, Sa – 4 mile easy (XC - easy) or 4k park run (~6 min mile), Su – 18 mile easy (~8 min mile) .

Results are a new PB for the 4k park run - 14:56 and a ‘new’ (never raced this distance before) PB for 20 miles of 2:21:17.

I’m encouraged by the 20 mile run, as it felt comfortable at this pace. I think that ‘close’ to 3 is probably realistic now for the next marathon (5 weeks away), although breaking it isn’t yet realistic. I’ll be bumping weekly mileage up to 50 miles by extending the LSR, then having a 2 week taper. Will let you know where that gets me in the Marathon!

General observations are that still no injuries (consistency or luck seem to be paying off). Long runs feel slow, but comfortable and can easily run the next day. In race nutrition of 1 gel every 5 miles is also working for me. I know I will get a kicking from some for this last bit but should also say that all training runs have been in moderate racing flats (Asics Tarther) and that I did the 20 miler in Asics Piranhas! (Think I will take the Tarther’s for the marathon though).

I can remember whilst living in South Wales a very talented runner named Darren Hiscox who used to run for Bridgend and ran london in 2-20 told me that the secret to successful marathon training was to be able to run 20miles as if it was a normal training run and then develop enough leg speed to do well in 10k races.

This sort of conditioning can only come with experience and practice and many top runners do not run a marathon until they are ready for it.

The majority of us see the marathon as the only goal as a runner and many of us dream of breaking 3hrs but if one can concentrate whilst still fairly young at excelling at the 10k then the marathon will be the end goal.

Put it this way Mo Faragh may become one of the best 10k runners this country has ever produced and once he reaches his early 30s he will step up to the marathon where is likely to run sub 2-10 or better at his first attempt.

He may even break the great Welshman Steve Jones all time best 2-07-14 which is still in the top ten best time for the marathon in the Uk even though it was set way back in 1985.

Once you can get your 10k time down to around 32min then is the time to attempt the marathon.

Those of us who run 38-39 min for 10k will struggle at the distance because we simply do not have enough speed or endurance for the marathon. 

OK - final update after getting to 50 miles a week in training.

I've run the marathon now. First 7 miles at 6:50 per mile pace, half way in 1:31, got a real can't be bothered feeling by mile 17, brief stop for toilet break, think of stopping but decide I would still have to walk back, jog onwards, stomach cramps at 20 mile drink station so two short walks to get over it, dragged my aching body over the line in 3:20:08, a new pb, but not really plan 'A'!

Now going to start a new thread on 'setting realistic targets/ choosing the correct pace for a marathon'!

Thanks for all your comments and help on this thread.

Ric - For sure the pace was too fast. I should have aimed at 7:00-7:15 min miles this time. Got over confident after the 20 mile run and with the thought of 3 hour marathon glory (I also need blinkers to stop chasing after people). Next step is a summer of pace running for 5k/ 10k while keeping some of the distance up at the weekend. Hopefully I will get the balance right and come back faster and wiser.

As a note I have been doing 8 mile pace runs during the week (~7 min mile) and park runs (~6 min mile), but shelved any longer pace runs when not racing, so you may have a point on that. I also think serious hill work was missing, as the course had a few lumps that I made a meal of.

Ive found great similarities between myself and your efforts Rob. I had grand ideas of achieving a sub 3 hour marathon at the first attempt last year. I was around the 39/40 min mark for a 10k and my training was quite similar to yours. I'd done a 20 mile slow run in 2.20 and felt quite comfortable so went into with it with cautious optimism.

I went through half way in 1.27 but at the 19 mile mark the wheels came off spectacularly and i pretty much crawled over the line in 3.30. That nearly put me off running for life. ha ha.

I then decided to enter my first official 10k race in march and ran 36.16 and have just done my second one in 34.47. I'm now getting grand ideas of a sub 3 hour again but wondering if i should keep on aiming to better my 10k or aim for a marathon. (my 10k training seems to be setting off out and if i feel good, i go for it.)

Anybody know if my 10k time would suffer if i decided to do a marathon or would they complement each other?

*long run not slow.

mr lalor wrote (see)

Ive found great similarities between myself and your efforts Rob. I had grand ideas of achieving a sub 3 hour marathon at the first attempt last year. I was around the 39/40 min mark for a 10k and my training was quite similar to yours. I'd done a 20 mile slow run in 2.20 and felt quite comfortable so went into with it with cautious optimism.

I went through half way in 1.27 but at the 19 mile mark the wheels came off spectacularly and i pretty much crawled over the line in 3.30. That nearly put me off running for life. ha ha.

I then decided to enter my first official 10k race in march and ran 36.16 and have just done my second one in 34.47. I'm now getting grand ideas of a sub 3 hour again but wondering if i should keep on aiming to better my 10k or aim for a marathon. (my 10k training seems to be setting off out and if i feel good, i go for it.)

Anybody know if my 10k time would suffer if i decided to do a marathon or would they complement each other?

 

With a sub 35 minute 10k you definately now have the speed. If you can whip up some sort of endurance to go with it sub 3 would definately be a realistic goal!

Peter John Lewis wrote (see)

I can remember whilst living in South Wales a very talented runner named Darren Hiscox who used to run for Bridgend and ran london in 2-20 told me that the secret to successful marathon training was to be able to run 20miles as if it was a normal training run and then develop enough leg speed to do well in 10k races.

This sort of conditioning can only come with experience and practice and many top runners do not run a marathon until they are ready for it.

The majority of us see the marathon as the only goal as a runner and many of us dream of breaking 3hrs but if one can concentrate whilst still fairly young at excelling at the 10k then the marathon will be the end goal.

Put it this way Mo Faragh may become one of the best 10k runners this country has ever produced and once he reaches his early 30s he will step up to the marathon where is likely to run sub 2-10 or better at his first attempt.

He may even break the great Welshman Steve Jones all time best 2-07-14 which is still in the top ten best time for the marathon in the Uk even though it was set way back in 1985.

Once you can get your 10k time down to around 32min then is the time to attempt the marathon.

Those of us who run 38-39 min for 10k will struggle at the distance because we simply do not have enough speed or endurance for the marathon. 

Peter other than making Mo sound like an Irish politician, you are right.

5k, 10k are the distances you should concentrate on. Once your getting under 18 and 35 minutes respectively your ready for the marathon.

Of course if you just want to run it thats a different matter, but to get under 3 hours you got to get that endurance stamina speed balance.

Somoene I know is an FLM Ever-Present and has done them all under 3 hours (quickest was 2.28, I think, he did around 2.51 this year, aged 53).  He has never trained more than 40 miles a week (although he races ultra and ran from West to East Coast of the US recently) BUT has been running consistently for so many years - well, decades - that he has built up a huge bank of miles.  And he is as tough as old boots.  If you don't have that mileage bank, and you haven't the natural speed to get by on relatively little training, I'd think you have to do a fair amount of mileage to get under 3 hrs.

I just did a marathon in sub 3 (2:56) with doing no more than 49 miles in a week, I did between 13 (taper)-49 per week (ave = 34miles over a 13 week period)...Trained 5/6 days per week...