Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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05/09/2012 at 18:07
Dachs wrote (see)

Johnas - Enjoy the 24! I pretty much arrived at that as my longest run by sticking my finger in the air.  Did you have a better reasoning in choosing it?

I did a 22 in training that took me just inside 2:40 (pace was 7:14 compared with MP of 6:30 so about MP + 10%) and on reflection was maybe a bit short: I reckon a 23 or 24 would have taken me closer to 2:50 which was my target time or even just a plain 22 but run more slowly so MP + 20%.

Stevie G . wrote (see)

Phil, I don't even know what a technical course is! But I probably know what you mean.

Technical courses are the nice parts of cross country where you get to use your brain as much as your body. If you just run across a field or up a hill or down a hill then that is an even playing field for all. What you want is a deeply rutted track so you can choose to run in the bottom of the ruts or on the top, or a field to cross where the well trodden path isn't the shortest route, or tight corners round bushes which are tighter still if you run into the bushes. I am surprised how many runners round round puddles and not through: example at Black Park:

through the middle

 round the edge

 and that is me ahead of Guy and I have a 17-2 loosing streak against him so that is one of my two wins|49751

05/09/2012 at 18:13
Dachs wrote (see)

Johnas - Enjoy the 24! I pretty much arrived at that as my longest run by sticking my finger in the air.  Did you have a better reasoning in choosing it?

My coach has put me down for a 3 hr run which basically translates to 24 miles, as I do my long runs at 7.30m/m. It'll be last long run before tapering down.

Dachs wrote (see)

I did want to run Maidenhead this year, to make up for having an absolute stinker at the inaugural race last year, but I just wouldn't be able to trust myself to treat it as a training run.

I did it last year too but tbh, was not impressed with the route or the organisation. However, I need to get a 15 mile run in on that day so thought why not - it's quite flat like Berlin so a good place to really practise MP before the big day. Plus, it's nice to run with a group and not have to worry about going out Saturday night and hiding drinks bottles on route!



05/09/2012 at 18:41

Interesting comment about tech courses and puddles. A guy in my club set what was apprently a course record at the Tadley round of what was the Todays Runner League. He said that one reason behind his speed was choosing to run through puddles. He explained that the reasoning was that the ground under the puddle was hard and compacted which was why the water generally collected there. So its faster to blast straight through the puddles. One word of caution. In Ruislip woods a puddle forms on one particular path and individuals unknown excavated the ground beneath. A good spot for spectators, at least for one lap.

05/09/2012 at 19:15

Does anybody know if there is a triathlon 'Po10' type site with records and results etc?

05/09/2012 at 20:04

Struggling to keep up with the forum at the mo, so sorry if I've missed anything! After two weeks away, work has piled up and I spent most of yesterday at the Paralympics - I have to say I was very humbled and impressed by both the athletes and the size of the crowd. The noise when David Weir won gold was the loudest thing I have ever heard!

Dachs - I've had a similar reaction both pst marathon and post very long run training in the heat. The medic after VLM said it was a CO2 build up in the blood causing retching and dizziness. Best way to deal is to lie down he said.

I wouldn't necessarily agree about the puddles Ric - depends on the underlying soil. It is the case that often the bowl that the water has pooled on is a result of the soil overlaying a hard sub-surface layer being exposed, but it is also fairly often the case that it is just a depression in an even deeper soil layer and your foot can just disappear - SG can vouch for that with his lost shoes!!  Comes down to judgement and looking at the surrounding surface. Another thing with XC is not just how you read the surface, but sometimes just an innate ability to "float" over softer surfaces and move faster without sinking into them - something I just haven't got! Taking shorter, faster steps helps, but some people are just naturally better at this.

Seb - 15 Min mile pace is pretty extreme, but that does include sections of slow (and careful!) scrambling bordering on proper climbing to slow me down as well as a couple of mins on the summit soaking up the views! I seem to remember our little jaunt in the peaks was over 11 mins per mile as it was and that was with you forcing the pace!

Managed a decent paced xc yesterday, but my first double day for a while today has left me pretty knackered and sore legged - not helped by a very late night last night and ealy start this morning I guess.


05/09/2012 at 20:20

Phil, I'm surprised that chap ever beats anyone if he's fairy-ing around puddles that don't look particularly deep. He should have tried Black Park on the day I did it that time. (ps shut up everyone..allow it )

Bus I think you're spot on with a couple of things you say.Annie B in the XC series is a great example. She beat loads of guys (including me) that she wouldn't get close to on the road. I look forward to a rematch this xc season presuming I'm at 100%, and not 90% like with most of last season.

And of course, it's judgement on puddles and the like. Can you see where the bottom is? If you can't, it's ridiculous to just steam through it. I did that once, and was suddenly up to my neck in a puddle...something the chap behind thought rather funny.

I'm forever paranoid about sticky mud patches now, having lost half my shoe in one race, and had it sucked off (steady!) at another.

In fact, the next time I come to that last water jump at Tadley, I'll be going all out not to lose that shoe again!!

Had a split second to decide whether to run the last mile shoe less and lose no time, or waste 10secs putting it back on. Took the later, which cost me a place, but was probably wise!

Edited: 05/09/2012 at 20:29
05/09/2012 at 21:43

The only Thames Valley XC I've done lately is my clubs home fixture. Annie B was at one of those. Couldn't quite fathom out her performance that day compared to others on PO10. 

I've a vague recollection of a race in the old Todays Runner league days where the first 20 runners were directed through a small river on the first of two laps while the rest of the field was directed over a nearby bridge. Deft use of tape by an on course marshal. For whose efforts he received applause from the assembled spectators and later on a faceful of violent abuse from a clubmate of mine who objected rather strongly to be treated as some kind of effing plaything there for the effing amusment of lazy effing c..ts, etc. Wasn't happy.

05/09/2012 at 21:58

Got to love the changes to courses whilst the race is going on!

Bracknell last year, as Phil will testify, had some mid race directional changes, with the marshalls doing a stirling job, as some hoons on motorbikes were really dangerously using the same trails as the 100s of runners.

Goodness knows whether they had a permit or just rocked up, but bearing in mind it's one of those pansy venues that has to be run at a certain time of year only, to not disturb wildlife, I can't imagine they'd allow idiots on motorbikes to go wild.

06/09/2012 at 08:26

My puddle theory is pretty much the same as Ric's hard base theory. For most races I will do one lap as warm up so check out the suspect comedy puddles as I go round.

In the Olympic cycle cross I saw they had route options so a short but dangerous option and a longer but safe alternative, would like to see that for XC as well so through the river or diversion over the bridge.

Did a measured mile last night: 5:26 which is OKish but need a bit faster so will be up the track one evening in the next week or so to try a fast one. SG: got any session soon which includes pacing me round 1609.344 metres in something closer to 5:15 (so maybe 75 seconds per lap and allow for a bit of a die).

06/09/2012 at 08:59

 I think that kind of pace over a mile would soon get my hamstrings moaning!

I'm trying to remember what my session tomorrow is, and i can't check on dropbox, as work have blocked it,  but I'm sure it involves a couple of miles at tempo, a couple of 600s possibly at 3k and something else. I'll have to check it later. I've long favoured the track stuff over the continuous tempo, even if these days i can handle the tempos a lot better than when I started.

I generally take the shortest line in XC, and especially after races like Reading's XC i have the monumentally scratched up skin to show for it!

Sandhurst used to start with a huge puddle, and we're talking stream rather than a couple of feet, but it was at the start so you'd position yourself accordingly.

06/09/2012 at 09:03

Comedy puddles eh! the idea gives me ideas about getting the spade out. 

Route options, motivation can be a great driver. A friend of mine who like me was also once one of those pursuers of rare birds, called twitchers, was so motivated to 'get' something, that he managed to somehow get over a 7 foot high fence topped with overhanging barbed wire. Oh he was also a 1:25 half marathon runner and told me that while training in the badlands of Rickmansworth had to clear another barbed wire job on account of the imminent close attentions of a pair of pit-bulls. Solid nettles and brambles on the safe side. The adrenaline must have worked well, he said he never felt a thing.

06/09/2012 at 09:54

I can vouch for the powers of adrenaline Ric.

One time I had to hotfoot it away from some dodgy characters driving after me, and I lept into a bush to hide.

Unfortunately there was a massive cluster of stinging nettles, and my arm was more stings then skin. I honestly didn't feel it for about an hour after. Upon which was BEYOND sore.

06/09/2012 at 09:59

adrenaline: did you see the 4x400 race in the Olympics where the guy broke his leg at 200 and finished?

06/09/2012 at 10:05

It sounds impossible, and for us weasley types we'd literally fall into a heap crying for matron.

But those sprinters are so stacked with supporting muscle, i expect it didnd't even strike the chap that he might want to stop.

06/09/2012 at 10:09
Stevie see wrote (see)

Dean, RE spikes, without sounding predictable... NIKE!  I wear Nike waffle XCs. Just ordered the Waffle XC 10, Probably rip me feet to shreds but they look lovely Seriously, they are a good shoe, upper is not very well protected (does it need to be?!), but they are really light and the plate is very responsive. I've had some Asics ones and they were awful, but they were bottom of the line I think. Spikes are a must, trail shoes won't cut it during the wetter races when the course has been turned over by every age group going before the senior men get to it!

You running the North Staffordshire league matches? They are really good races and a decent standard. Manchester league is even better in terms of standard but the courses are largly parks.

SS & SG  - cheers for footwear advice.  I just heard that the staffs league needed spikes so im between nike waffle (not sure what you paid but they are £35 at sports direct), brooks mach 13 or asics hyper xc.  Brooks and nike are cheaper but i heard they are quiet narrow in the toe box. No shops near me sell them so i might have to get all 3 delivered online just to try on.

Im doing the  staffs and birmingham league.  birmingham is much more competitive and would probably find myself down in about 80th. 

The staffs county champs is 2 weeks or so before my 40th and the inter counties is after my 40th.  Not sure if they would allow me to qualify for a vet vest when i will be a vet for the inter-county race but not for the qualifiers. (This assumes i would be fast enough for a vest which is by no means a given!)

06/09/2012 at 10:22

Have never run in spikes, but people who have tell me that they let you just float over deep mud.

Only one of the 7 races in my xc I've done is woodland only, so no need to buy any really. The Walshes take a bit of road wear as well, which suits me.

06/09/2012 at 10:33

Dean, you will need to check out the various rules for that qualification as there are odd rules in place and they vary from race to race and region to region. A lot of age groups are defined by your age on 31st August but for vets it is often date of the competition. It is definitely worth a quick email or letter to the selectors just to point out your situation so they are aware of it.

06/09/2012 at 10:58

too right Phil...I think it was Pub Phil who had a great example, where he signed up to a race series, where he was turning 40 mid way through.

He only raced in the 2nd race, after which he had turned 40, and beat the guy who was awarded V40 comfortably. However, because he was under 40 at the start of the series, that was the age group he was fixed for


Edited: 06/09/2012 at 11:01
Cortina5    pirate
06/09/2012 at 13:11
Stevie G . wrote (see)

It sounds impossible, and for us weasley types we'd literally fall into a heap crying for matron.

Much like last night. Decided to do my first voluntary set of intervals. Used the grass to lessen impact and kept an eye out for dents and rabbit holes. Got cockey on the 3rd rep and turned my ankle over. Very sore this morning, and I know it will be worse once I driven 2.5hrs to the airport tomorrow. Thus my Cardiff dreams were over.

On the plus side, as I've been hammering the first km in my Parkruns, the interval pace (3:40/km) didn't seem too bad! A few weeks of swimming and cycling beckons.

06/09/2012 at 13:29

SG - I'm thoroughly enjoying the image of you hiding in the bushes from a gang of yahoos.  What had you done?!

The race series PhilPub wasn't V40 for was Yateley, so you could always ask your club on his behalf...

Dean - don't be in a hurry to turn 40.

Johnas - I thought the Maidenhead route was quite enjoyable, with the obvious exception of the stupid loops at the beginning and end.  I understand it's very changed now though.

IronCat5 - sorry to hear about the injury.

Track last night for me, a pyramid of 800, 1200, 1600, 2000, 1600, 1200, 800, all with 400 recoveries.  Feeling suitably hardcore now, albeit that I was a fair bit off my usual pace, averaging about 82 seconds a lap.  Don't think that's too bad mind, given that I ran 24 on Monday.

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