Sounds sensible Bus. Not had a cold for some time, but I know they can knock you if you keep running through them. Get yourself fit and raring to go for Marlow.
The XC race tomorrow is my 1 session for the week. I'll keep to that, as I'm still not coping with 70 miles as easilly as I could considering I'm doing one session. The good thing about this week is on Sunday I do a trail race of 17.1 miles so that's my long run sorted. No taper for either race, as SG says, that would defeat the purpose.
Stick to 70 miles, one session and a good long run of circa 2:15-2:30hours for at least another 6 weeks. No rush, plus I'll be due an easier week in 2-3 weeks to recover.
Good luck with both of those Stevie. Whichever way you look at it, 70 miles per week is a very big commitment - may not seem it sometimes when you read this forum, but it still is!
Cheers Bus, I know what you mean, I get so caught up in everyone's training I lose sight of my own capabilities sometimes! Doing 70 in only single runs is a reet commitment in the evening. If only I could get up before work...
Stevie G . wrote (see)
Stevie, we're all learning as we go to some extent, but one of the massive keys is never increasing both mileage and quality. Therefore, you've done right only increasing the mileage. If you wanted to keep that level of mileage, you'd want to bed it in for a while, and then add the second hard session. If you really wanted a true base phase, you'd keep your mileage high, intensity low in training and not racing, and stay like that for a couple of months. Can you not race for that long? Not 100% sure about XC racing fitting in. On the one hand, it's less smashing than the road, but I guess on the downside, if you're doing that on a sunday, the long run gets binned, which is a key part of the base build up. Also you'd need to bin off the usual taper before, then recovery after, as the whole point is keeping the mileage up.
Stevie, we're all learning as we go to some extent, but one of the massive keys is never increasing both mileage and quality.
Therefore, you've done right only increasing the mileage. If you wanted to keep that level of mileage, you'd want to bed it in for a while, and then add the second hard session.
If you really wanted a true base phase, you'd keep your mileage high, intensity low in training and not racing, and stay like that for a couple of months. Can you not race for that long?
Not 100% sure about XC racing fitting in. On the one hand, it's less smashing than the road, but I guess on the downside, if you're doing that on a sunday, the long run gets binned, which is a key part of the base build up.
Also you'd need to bin off the usual taper before, then recovery after, as the whole point is keeping the mileage up.
Not sure I totally agree with the exact statements above.
The way I look at it is this (with a lot taken from Noakes see e.g. http://www.coachr.org/learn_the_15_laws_of_training.htm)
The idea is to peak for a period. That may be one peak a year (so summer Olympics) or two peaks (spring and autumn marathon) or whatever. You can't be at your peak all year and so you can't just PB day in, day out. If you think you can you are kidding yourself and just being consistently mediocre.
So fist thing to do is to work out when you want to peak and how often, once or twice:
Once you have decided on your peak window, you do base beforehand. Base is generally about building up and getting the miles in but more importantly it is about getting the body ready for the time when you switch from base to sharpening and then into that magical peak window when you bag all your PBs.
So base is definitely not about racing competitively but you can race, just know what you are doing it for. And it is to some degree about distance but it should not feel like you are grinding it out: it should be easy: "a guiding principle during base training is that, after any training session, the runner should feel able to turn around and complete the same workout again if demanded." There is no need to have a Sunday long run in base: it is a good thing and an easy thing to do in the pattern but there is no rule that says you have to, nor a rule that says you need a lot of miles. Base is about getting the body ready to move up a gear.
Cheers Phil, I'll give that website a read. Not sure about "turning round and doing it all again." I'd have to be doing 30 miles a week to feel like that!
It's posts like Phils, that remind me why I let the coach set the schedules
But Phil, if base doesn't have to be about mileage, and it's certainly not about speed....what the heck is it about?
Surely to get stronger you simply either need to increase speed or distance.
No, not at all. Last year, after Cabbage Patch, I did a good spell of base work and it was just a regular 50 miles a week, every week. Just the same as RicF is doing his regular 10 miles a day, that is base building. The thing is that at the start of base it feels hard, and then as you get used to it, it feels easier. The idea of base training is that at the end of it you are ready to step up. The peak is the glamorous bit, the icing on the cake, those "16 week marathon campaigns" which hide the fact that you did just as much base building beforehand. Base building is about building: getting credit in the bank. It is all about conservative decisions: if you feel tired take it easy. Don't get to the end of the run and feel whacked: get to the end of the run and feel you can do it again. I like racing and don;t mind racing in base, but it is always a few notches off my hardest. Look at e.g. Bearwood where you came storming past me on the last uphill. I'm not saying I could have beaten you if I had gone hard, but I knew I had a 20 on Tuesday and did a 12 on Wednesday and 10 Friday so Sunday was not about 100%.
Another nice post Phil, cheers.
First XC of the year today. New route was much more interesting than previous years, and was slightly hillier but in fairness the route is not what you would call an 'honest' XC course. Went out a bit keen, first mile in 5:55, settled into familiar territory around the usual goons from road racing, moved past them and began to wonder what was going on. Finished strong, last 150m was something else, lashed out a massive sprint finish to gain 3 places. Finished 31st, my best performance in that league and a big improvement on 49th last year (which was after an easy week). Beat a lot of rivals, all that after 3 weeks of big mileage. The day off beforehand really helped. All in all a good day.
Onto the matter of a 17.1 mile trail race tomorrow, really up for it.
Big tick for that one then Stevie - nicely done.
Not sure about being able to do any training session again "if demanded". Anyone who demanded another 15M of muddy xc out of me might end up lying on the floor with a black eye!
Phil. I couldn't have put it better if I tried. I confess to have written several paragraphs about what I was up to and simply deleted them on account of the postings leaning towards the 'There's my way, or the wrong way' school of thought.
I base built really by accident. First I had to go easy to rid myself of a niggle. Two, I had made a uninformed statement about Lydiard which needed checking out and finally that I'd laid hands on a Garmin. The combination ensured that the one objective was 'don't do yourself in'. I wasn't expecting the end result. I haven't once in training put myself in any appreciable oxygen debt. In my speed sessions I could still speak while running them. But in the races I did, I gradually got faster at the same effort level. The last race on Sunday was what I really wanted to do well at. At Battersea I averaged a particular pace under ideal conditions on an ideal course. At Aldershot on an awkward course under terrible conditions, I ran just as fast, even with my shoes weighing more than twice as much as usual due to the water logging. I gave my team a minute they were not expecting and good job since we won by only 27 seconds. Runners who were faster than me all summer were slower than I was that day. I was probably in sub 28 min 5 mile shape that day. Asked how I did it, I naturally I said was taking EPO. But really it was just a simple increase in overall work. The effort of that work didn't matter. Just a case of more, and for long enough for the bod to get the message that it was here to stay. I wasn't trying to prove a point. But if I was/am I would say that I seem to have discovered the route to improvement is more basic than I believed.
Nice one Ric that's kind of the validation that I was looking for. I do one session a week where I hit the 'oxygen debt' zone, the rest is easy stuff. If it's good enough for you mate...
same xc race as Stevie S - i quite liked the course, flat with moderate inclines. my plan was to start off conservatively and work back through the tiring field. 4 lap course so in my mind i let the first 2 laps pass me by and then pick it up. i was down in the twenty somethings when i made my move at lap 3. Worked through the field well enough and by the 4th lap i was in about 12th. Now the people in front were way in front. some of those ahead have similar road times as me but i had given them too big a lead. So started to pick the pace up and caught up 2 with not much race to go. Had a hard battle but managed to get some space. Now i was 30 secs down on the guy in front who i have a faster 5k and HM. only about half a mile to go and started to pull him back but even with a decent sprint i couldnt catch him and ended 2 or so secs behind. So 10th in my first XC for 2 decades. It was 6.82m and my ave pace was 5.52 so happy with the stats. What annoys me is that i didnt race well, i was too conservative for half the race and gave too much of a head start to the top 10. I hope not to make that error again.
well raced Stevie, some of the stoke lads you beat have been running very well recently so it shows your strong level at the moment.
nice XC ing fellas, although late September does seem way too early for the season to start.
And Stevie, what are you doing, I presumed sat's was a light piss about, but 6.82miles is longer than all our XC series over here, so was long enough on its own. And then 17.1mile trail race!? Sounds a nighmare! But enjoy, and it'll be a pb
Off for a 14 shortly,
so good luck to
Phil and Bus at SloughSee man at the long trail one
and the big man Dachs at Berlin. Apparently it starts at 8am, so on returning today, I might dig out the feed and see how he (and a couple of others) are doing.
8am start? Blimey, that would mean breakfast at 5am! I'll corss Berlin off my to do list then!
Hey ho Dean - that's what XC is all about in some ways I guess, testing the tactics! I'd settle for that pace in my road 10k today by the way!
Great XC there from Stevie and Dean: Dean to p10 is a great start and you have come away feeling you can do better so we will hold you to that: Stevie good step up from last year and again with a rest we expect more next outing.
Interesting tactics all round but opens up a big debate as to the best race pace strategy as there is sort of an optimal solo pace and then there is the extra boost you get when racing head to head and is it easier to chase or be chased.
ricF, knew you would bring up Lydiard Just waiting for Zattu now.
Bus, remember, that's a 9am start local time...so not quite as bad.
Reminds me a bit of the times I had a work footy competition in Holland. Set off at 3am, and we were playing football by 9am (10am local time). No wonder we were always rubbish in the first game!
Checked the Berlin times....interesting stuff.
Sam A was after a sub 2hr 40 which would have asked a hell of a lot, with a 2hr 44 at London, and a 2hr 42 pb from 2 years ago, but seems like she had a little bit of a trip which certainly didn't help, to come out 2hr 45...needless to say, still a cracking time!! Well worth pointing out her half pb is 1:17....so check that for a result from that!
My old pal John (Johnas on the forums), cracked a terrific time too....not sure if he'll be on to tell us about it...if not i'll reveal his time later...
Dachs hit a time I think is pretty excellent too...but I'll leave him dissect it
All 3 sounds very fast to me!
I certainly think I under appreciated what a quality performance Phil's London Marathon was at the time though....
Philip_M_Jones wrote (see)
Stevie G . wrote (see) enjoy the weekend race reports of at least 3 on the thread, yourself and Phil at South Bucks 10k I can draft the report now: fast start, feel it is hard by the 1km mark, bus out of sight by the end of the fisrt lap, hard pull up the hill, finish in low 39.xx.
enjoy the weekend race reports of at least 3 on the thread, yourself and Phil at South Bucks 10k
enjoy the weekend race reports of at least 3 on the thread, yourself and Phil at South Bucks 10k
I can draft the report now: fast start, feel it is hard by the 1km mark, bus out of sight by the end of the fisrt lap, hard pull up the hill, finish in low 39.xx.
So almost spot on. Followed Wool for the first 4km and knew the pace was too fast but it felt easy so let it go. From 4 to 5 I was passed by 5 people as I took the incline easy and then I just drifted back fairly slowly from there (bus was out of sight) and then finished in 39:02.
Positives: 5km in 19 dead so clearly a sub 19 parkrun is the next step and also today was half a minute faster than 2 weeks ago.
Negatives: still have no speed endurance.
I think that is a compliment so I'll take it.
Easy 5 mile this morning, the first run after four days off. Legs and breathing fine. Interesting point about Phils comment on base building. In my case, I more or less run the same route each day just to get off the road; 45 seconds usually, and then avoid harder surfaces for much of the time by running up and down local golf course fairways. As mentioned, at the start of the cycle, there was some obvious fatigue, but by repeating the same loading day after day, over the weeks this gradually disapeared. The change was noticeable but subtle. When the races came along, I didn't think I'd run faster than before, I knew I would.
I wouldn't decry conventional sessions per se but I feel in the course of building a base they have to be reined back. I read an comment in a book called 'Winning without Drugs' in the chapter about 'Tapering', when it said that weightlifters avoided 'Take Out sessions' for up to ten days before a competition. Just gave me an idea of how much damage a maximum effort can have. Yes, easy running. It works well enough as base building, but if you only do it because you have mashed legs its just a waste of time.
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