Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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08/11/2012 at 09:31

No mistake with the wording - I know what I mean! Ric is a fine figure of man!

Dachs - great session. I bet after a couple of those you find your injury time has actually moved you forward.

No run for ma agian today. Legs are all Ok except the left calf - still very sore. With the benefit of hindsight I can trace the problem all the way back to the long run two weeks before GSR.

08/11/2012 at 09:39

Perception is a funny thing Dachs, I'd never thought of myself as a "game raiser". I suppose it looks like that as I train to pre designated paces, rather than running stuff as hard as I can. I think that explains it.

Having said that I always thought I was better suited for short distance work, but McMillan and WAVAss both suggest I couldn't be more wrong.

Either way you have my permission to lead me round to a nice pb though

Bus, rest up well. Gosport is a calling.

Edited: 08/11/2012 at 09:41
08/11/2012 at 09:54

dachs / SG - hints of me and chingo from trafford 10k build up -  "youre the best and in better you are the best and in better form"   

on that hopefully chingo is recovering & ready to continue his onslaught of PBs soon.

dachs - to be slightly negative when i came back after a month or so off with my achilles problem back in june i did a few track sessions and flew round them no problem. My coach said i was back to normal.  I promptly struggled and had the worst race  where i was 1min 20 down on my 5k PB.  I went off correctly but found i couldnt hold and knit the consistant km's together.  Hopefully you wont have this problem.  It went so bad in that race my last km was my slowest

Edited: 08/11/2012 at 09:56
08/11/2012 at 10:36

Dean, is he, or are you just saying hopefully?

I think Dachs has the best "top time" on the board with his 10k time. In fairness i'm certainly not seeing this as any kind of face off, but I'm looking forward to chipping the 5.57 pace per mile of my pb down each mile, and seeing what happens

What do you have coming up next Dean? haven't seen a stonker pb for a while, after a right good year.

08/11/2012 at 12:04

re chingo i dont know how he is - i think Robt said not so long back he hadnt seen him in a while meant he isnt at the track hitting intervals which doesnt sound promising.  Before the VLM/injury i think we all thought this was going to be another bumper yr for him.

your comments in the post above is exactly the same banter chingo and i had before trafford 10k.  He had the clear PB but i was ready for a break through race, we both thought the other had the advantage  will be a good race between you both, with a PB each!

i have 4 XC in the next 5 weeks plus my target race of Telford 10k the week after where i am going for a PB.  Hopefully a decent size one as i havent run a 10k since easter!  Lake Vyrnwy HM was early september which was my last road race so it will have been 3 months to telford.  hopefully the XC will have added some strength.

2013 has helby hm in jan, a fast 10k in Feb and wilmslow hm in march so hopefully at the end of all that some PBs will have fallen

08/11/2012 at 12:43

Let's hope Chingo can come back to racing soon then, it really has been a long lay-off for him.

As for Gosport, I think I have four different ways that I could play it:

  • Go for my aim when I entered, e.g. sub 1:15
  • Go for a PB (which, on a good day without recent injury would be very soft given that it was from a hilly/hot race), i.e. under 1:17:23
  • Set off sensibly and go for something solid but unspectacular, i.e. 1:18/1:19
  • Treat the whole thing as a marathon pace job

Or, now I think about it, there is secret option 5, which is to sit on SG's shoulder until I either fall off the scorching early pace, or storm past in a spirit-sapping surge a la Ric, maybe flipping the bird as I do so.

Training over the next week will give more of a clue as to how I approach it, but I think it would be foolish to go off at 1:15 pace, which would have been a stretch even without a recent lay-off.

08/11/2012 at 13:33

Dean, he'll probably re-emerge straight with a pb, as sometimes when you're out you don't want to race until you're back top top form.

But it's no doubt an upset when you're reasonably new in, stonking the pbs each race, thinking it'll go on like that indefinitely, then crash an injury. But that's the nature of the beast! And this is why you'll never find me stating big aims on here, as a lot of the time it can be a fine line between pbs and breakdown.

Dachs, great post, you are always one of the most entertaining on here!

There's no chance you're taking option 3 or 4.

I think you'll end up doing option 5, starting slightly less foolishly than me, but as I ease down to the correct pace for mile 2, you'll probably start to ease ahead then. Upon which i'll watch you sail into the sunset, or if you're really far ahead, see you coming past me the other way round the airfield

In seriousness I'd race it like I'm going to. Have the pace per mile of your pb in your mind as a safety net (5.57 for me, 5.54sh for you?), and try and take time off each mile.

08/11/2012 at 14:40

SG - you can't really be serious about a 5:57 pace can you off your CP time, even as a safety net?

That would be what I would be aiming for IF I was doing Gosport...(no doubt failing, but aiminf nonetheless )

Even a relatively comfortable 7 secs per mile slower than CP gives you 5:50 pace!

08/11/2012 at 15:47

Dachs -  perhaps aim at a 76.30 and you will have a better idea at mile 5 and can start to up the pace to get on to a 75 or better.  if you dont feel good at 5 miles you can turn it into a solid 77/78.

Stevie - go for a 76.xx.  Just had  a look at my 10m split for wilmslow and is was 57.59 and that ended in a 76.28.  Off the back of your recent races you must be looking to go through 10m at at least 58min.  He who dares!

08/11/2012 at 16:36

When i said 5.57,remember that I went into CP I had  5.50 in mind. It's just a benchmark from what's gone on before. You soon find out if you're on for much quicker.

Last year my 10mile to half times had a 7sec drop will be interesting to see the comparison post Gosport.


08/11/2012 at 16:46

SG, 3.57am posting. Not much I can do, I'm not usually awake during the hours of daylight.

Pb's during the early years. Had loads for first two years and then had to wait for another seven until the next batch. And to think all I did was drop 12lb's in weight.

Half marathon race tactics. Spend a couple of miles accelerating to top speed. Mentioned on another thread, avoid accumulating lactic acid for most of the way.

In the photo of the blocker, I was doing my fastest half marathon. 1st mile was a 5:45 and the last a 5:30. Average 5:37.

 SG, chuck the watch and go on feel.

Edited: 08/11/2012 at 16:47
Cortina5    pirate
08/11/2012 at 16:57

Interesting talk of tactics. I'm still at the begining of my running career, or 'journey' if you're in to all that X-factor POS; arriving at the end of my 3rd year. My strategy so far has been to start hard and hang on. Every PB has been run successfully on this, and I'll continue to roll this out for things like XC racing. Admittedly I have had paces in mind before, but they;ve always seemed silly paces until I crossed the line with time to spare. The body can do more when under pressure.

However of late I have become aware of something called pacing. This is hand in hand with the speed training, so in the event I ever do a real strandalone running race then I'll have a target pace, then really ramp it in the last km.

08/11/2012 at 17:02
RicF wrote (see)

The, "I don't care who beats me, I just want to finish" races are called Marathons.

For me the marathon was more of a race than many others: you set yourself up for one over 12 or 16 weeks so they are the best part of the culmination of half a year's effort and I certainly was not going to give up a single place in the last 100m whereas other races you sometimes take it easy towards the end as you know that a PB isn't on. As TR who pops in and out from time to time says: the best time to run 21 miles is after having run 20 already, and so if you don't run 26 that often a PB is more often than not an option.

Saw a podiatrist today as my foot won't settle down and be quiet. I am being sent for an X-ray to see if it is a stress fracture (unlikely) or a bruised bone (more likely). Some eye rolling about my plans to race this Sunday but she has given me some insoles with padded holes for my fifth metatarsal so I can run without loading the bone.

08/11/2012 at 17:41

Phil, hope that turns out well, you've had a lot of foot issues this last 6months. I think you jinxed yourself when you replied to my comment about marathons being ruining, by saying you did one and didn't get injured!

Dachs, Chingo, yourself have all had some trouble after a marathon..certainly doesn't encourage me....we'll leave DT2 out of this as that man is a machine!

Iron,   I was always an out hard, settle, then in hard type (ps no one's allowed to quote that and say oooh matron or the like).

I wouldn't exactly say my starts have got too much more sensible, but I suppose I level it out in the race a lot better these days, as I don't often finish with a huge sprint as I always used to.

Gosport number has arrived. That always makes it feel real.

I notice they do free massage afterwards. I expect most races do and I've just completely missed it all this time!!


08/11/2012 at 21:27

Deano, what's the fast 10k in Feb? I'm having a pop at Alsager in Feb this year as I can't run the Chester Spring 5 as I'll be away with VRAC warm weather training for 2 weeks in Portugal

Well if you all thought my last 8x1KM was a bit mental, I took it a step further tonight. Was worried after a hard 32 min session on Tuesday, but 2 club mates were well up for it so I agreed. We did 8x1KM with 1min recovery  Given I was doing 3:35 off 90 I was thinking there would be a 4 second lay-off.The lads were having none of it.

Did 3;39, 3;36, 3;35, 3;36, 3;36, 3;35, 3;36, 3;33 - I was Bus dry retching down the last 100m. The last 3 reps I basically tucked in the group and got dragged. Smashed now obviously. Good acid test session for Leeds though. Wouldn't advise that one on your own though, I needed to have a group who were swapping leader to keep everyone moving. That's a good collection of sessions in 3 weeks now.


08/11/2012 at 22:17

You are mad Stevie, no doubt about it! That is a beast fo a session. My dry retching would have been not logn after rep 5. Leeds will be smashed!

Good luck with that foot Philip. taking the load of the bone with specialist insoles sounds a good approach though. I hear what you say about the marathon and the long term commitment it represent,  but wouldn't necessarily fight for places in something like VLM - just time!

SG - you can add me to the post marathon casualty list to. Remember last year, when my first return to racing too quickly post VLM lead to 5 weeks off injured?

Ric/Ironcat - I would love to have the discipline to run a race in that way, but despite being (at least theoretically) convinced that a steady start, building speed is the way to go, in 160 odd races I've never actually managed to do it! Every race I do (other than those with a big hill at the start) starts at a pace much quicker than the average I want to do for that race, no matter how much I tell myself to hold back! I guess it's mainly down to reinforcing behaviour, where all my PBs have inevitably come in races that have been run this way and I've convinced myself somewher depp in my psyche that I've got to get time in the bank early on...

08/11/2012 at 22:47

SS - 10k in feb is high legh robert moffat memorial.  Its a small ish field but is apparently very flat.  fills up very fast.  I cant do alsager as its the weekend of my 40th so i will either be out the country or tied up with family.

Monster session, make sure you are rested up for Leeds. Dont leave anything on the track that you need on race day.

hope that foot heals fast philip

09/11/2012 at 07:03

Bus, I used to engage in fast starts myself and noted a pattern. First of all was the 400m blast, then after around 10 mins another slowing, and finally after about 9 miles, more slowing to the final grind pace.

Having had the odd runner go flying past me at two miles with no apparent effort caused me to conduct some pace experiments.

I worked out my average pace for an OK race and broke it down into 100m sections. On the track I practised this pace imagining I was starting a race. The result was consistently much too fast. I'd be looking for 21 seconds and would do 17!

The upshot was having to do two things in a race. First, set off at what feels like 3/4 pace and two, have the nerve to ignore the masses of other runners who go piling by.

Edited: 09/11/2012 at 07:04
09/11/2012 at 08:05

Stevie, what have we told you about being influenced by those older boys! To be fair though, it's all how it feels for you, and what results you get out of it. If the answer to those is ok, and pbs then it obviously works!

I've been down on my haunches after some sessions before, typically when you start working with fresh pace zones, but can't imagine being in a retching state!

Bus, it's hard enough work keeping fit training a lot for distances up to half marathons. Adding double the strain on the race day, as well as all those longer runs can surely only lead to breakdown unless the runner in question is supremely efficient and balanced.

Ric, as per Bus, i think I've done 130 races now, and i'm certain that all of those had a faster than average pace start. Worst example being where I led a 10k in about 2006 for 1k at 34min 10k pace when I was 40+mins class. Being a boiling hot day, that was a hugely unpleasant 30mins slumped face first in the grass after the race.

I'll never forget saying to a particularly humourless chap after the race "why do we do this to ourselves", and got the very personable response of  "you don't have to come along".

Was an odd race for memorable soundbites. Coming 8th in the race, and remarking to the marshall on the finish line about the 7 who had beat me, "how do they do it?".

I got the reply i'll never forget, "they're PROPER runners".

A reply seemingly based on me not wearing a club vest that day. So 8th in the race wasn't a proper runner. But 250th, who was 25mins slower, but wearing a club vest presumably was.

Hard session at lunch today, involving 800s and 400s. I'll do it on the road again so will go for .5m and 0.25m.

Luckily just checked the GPS and it was on 30% charge, so hanging on at home charging it up quickly....(up to 51%, come on!)

Edited: 09/11/2012 at 08:06
09/11/2012 at 08:42

regards pacing i am/was a get on pace straight away chap but often was up in the first couple of miles and claimed that as time banked for later when i fade.  But by going off too fast the fade is often due to the over ambitious start.  Due to the topography of lake vrynwy i went off slow, i think i didnt break 6mm for the first couple but wound it up slowly throughout the race and felt strong the whole way round finishing in a sub 5min last mile. (it was downhill!) Its made me think about HM pacing strategy.  I think for 5k and below you defn need to get on pace quickly.  Not sure about 10k's pace....will find out more in december.

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