Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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09/11/2012 at 21:28

i don't know what your other pbs are, but I'm willing to do some rough pace zone calculations if you are interested.

I coached a guy on this forum (skinny fetish fan) who was desperate for a sub 1hr 35, to a 1:29:08.  Shocked us both how much he smashed his target by.

That was simply through target pace zones for each session, 4 runs a week, maximum mileage of about 35 a week. (but mostly around 30 a week)

If you're not doing 25-30miles a week minimum, you're not giving yourself any chance to do yourself some justice. In that case i'd look to up mileage before upping intensity. Otherwise it's like trying to build a house without the foundations in my opinion

Edited: 09/11/2012 at 21:36
09/11/2012 at 22:00
Stevie G . wrote (see)

Dean, But if you start 10secs a mile slower than intended average, rather than quicker, will you be able to up the pace later on? Not something I ever want to try out.

Ric, I lost you half way through that piece. Are you saying you take on bladder bursting amounts of fluid, and then slowly pee it out on the run, thus losing weight, and going quicker as you have less weight to carry!!?

Bladder bursting if it got that far. Under race effort the fluid through the kidneys is much reduced so I assume it just gets used for cooling purposes. 

I imagine I'm sweating off at least 500ml every 4-5 miles in the heat, maybe more. If that fluid isn't replaced then you're going to slow down. 

The body's priority for hydration is the brain and other vital organs. Muscles are not a priority so if running low on fluid, the muscles are going to take a hit whether we like it or not.

That's one reason to keep really well hydrated. Distance running. As far as your body is concerned, that's a luxury add on. Everyday hydration isn't enough. And races especially so.

Yes I know that, 'real men' drink zero no matter what the race. But I don't like being dried into the ground during a run and the associated muscle damage even less.

09/11/2012 at 22:05

ric, all i can say is that the one time i overhydrated, I ended up in the bushes 10miles into a half marathon. It was my 2nd race, and it hasn't happened in the ensuing 134.

I can still remember the sting of that now. Not pretty.

09/11/2012 at 22:23

SG, fair comment. I have had a couple of occasions when my guts just went. I did wonder if that was over hydration. 

A really fast runner in my club suggested that I was simply so fit that I was running faster than my guts could cope with.

I did wonder if that was the case, since I didn't really go in for sustained speed runs in training. So a case for tempo runs then.

My race hydration follows a strict schedule in its timing to avoid bladder issues.

By the way, whats on this weekend, racing or training?

Edited: 09/11/2012 at 22:23
Cortina5    pirate
10/11/2012 at 09:46
TVXC for me Ric.

SG - if my focus is to run the fastest 5km I can, then is 25mi minimum still needed? Then I'll throw in the modifier and say the fastest 5km off a hard 20km bike. For pure runners I can understand the mileage to an extent, but I have other irons in the fire. Some balance is needed.
10/11/2012 at 10:10

Iron, mixing in with cycling/triathlons is a different scenario.  However, I'm sure if you speak to your fast peers, they'll either tell you they train like dogs, or are just especially blessed. If your focus is to truly do the fastest 5k you can, you certainly won't do it off tiny mileage.

I'm certain that you'd get nicely under your current 5k pb simply upping the easy paced mileage each week for a couple of months without any specific 5k stuff. It increases your base, and gives you more support to run faster. .

One of the fastest runners I ever spoke to told me that I "hadn't even started training yet", when I told him I did 30miles a week. I'll always remember that.

Ric, i think any of us "Guts" problems types wondered about why it happened before. I thought like you perhaps the intensity was too high. Then you realise the intensity in racing is always higher,and never a problem there,  so it's simply a nutrition/timing thing.

Good luck to any TVXCers. With Gosport next week, I'm swerving it. It did feel odd in 2010 doing a XC then having a half the next week, so will be pleased to finish the half and then think xcs.

Edited: 10/11/2012 at 10:12
10/11/2012 at 13:45


TVXC at Datchet tommorow. I'll pass myself.

Thats me after the last Datchet I ran.

10 miles of mud and dogs this morning.

Edited: 10/11/2012 at 13:46
10/11/2012 at 21:33

 birmingham league xc today a vey high standard..  another ok but not great in a xc race. 6.11 ave pace but proper xc course today.  very soft and sludgy, big steep hill, ditch crossing (see video below of last yrs race crossing the ditch! it made me laugh).  Very narrow in places and came to a walking pace going through the woods early on due to sheer numbers.    700 or so runners and probably finished in the 80s or slightly worse.

I enjoyed running it but there was so little hard flat ground for me to get my pace on, what little there was i blitzed past people.

Whilst it didnt effect my performance my metarsalgia really flared up on this course...still %$&#ing hurts now.  Tried to spot Seb but i couldnt see his teams a vey realistic chance he was finished before me and showered before i was crossing the line.

Edited: 10/11/2012 at 21:48
10/11/2012 at 23:12

LOVE that video. What a sympathetic crowd "WAAYYYEEE!" xc at its very best. All in good jest and actually looks great fun!

Dean, any league where you are in the 80s I want nothing to do with!!  I'd still be going as they are packing up for home! There is a nack to XC, it's very much a mental thing. But looks like you've gone a step further to cracking it pal. 700 in one field for an XC is mammoth!

10/11/2012 at 23:26
Indeed it was a proper XC today, amazingly filthy at the end of the race. Think head to toe mud. Ditch crossing got worse & worse as we did 3laps. 15mm spikes only just did the job. one lad fell in front of me on a narrow section and I had to jump right over him! Hill was short but brutal. I set off fairly fast clocking 5:39 for first mile and the last 1km. passed people up the hill and down every lap. Flew downhill. I'm sure Dean pulled alongside me (it was you I was talking to wasn't it?) after 4miles (of 9800m) but i pulled myself together and pushed on. I had slowed in the middle miles & kept thinking Dean would be on my shoulder any minute. end was 6:01 avg. I was aiming for top 100 but may have made the top 60! really pleased with today, training must be working. Calves are tight now but should be able to do a slow 6m or so tomorrow. Xc is clearly my niche going off today. Dean you can pay me back by thrashing me at Telford, or towing me round to a 34:Xx !
Edited: 10/11/2012 at 23:31
11/11/2012 at 00:00

excellent run Seb.  Wasnt me you were speaking to, possibly Steve Bazell as he was about a minute ahead and a v35. Steve is very strong on the XC so if you are ahead of him you have had a blinder!  congrats.


11/11/2012 at 06:26

good performances by the sound of it chaps.

Seb, you're clearly a xc specialist if you're beating Deano! I'm sure there's plenty of time for payback though, presumably there are plenty more races being only November?

That water jump looks like our Tadley, but deeper, although we don't have whooping crowds all loitering around. And you have a good vision of your jump whereas ours is around a bit of a bend. Has that same "do I jump or wade through" quality though.

700 runners in a race is huge though. Being sat xc is that just the men's race!? Sounds exactly the kind of set up that sounds a nightmare, gruelling course, massive field etc

dean, kudos on a 00:00 posting timed that specifically didn't you

12miles at 7am to come. Think i'll try a different route today, the one that has a really steep 1/2mile hill.

Edited: 11/11/2012 at 06:28
11/11/2012 at 08:38

12 miles done and dusted. Av pace 7:15. Went up something called Pinner Hill, which is about as steep as things get around here.

Well done on the XC guys. Saw the result of my own Chiltern League. FF was well up.

11/11/2012 at 08:46

beat me to it ric, 12miles for me in 1:27. nice and flat.

usual twinges from the top of the right leg on and off, bit of hip flexor whinge too. but usually resets itself the next day and doesn't get worse

probably need to get this 100%  thoug not sure if it needs a good sports massage or a proper appointment

11/11/2012 at 09:09

10m LSR in 6.57 ave pace for me this morning.  Didnt look at my watch once and just ran to feel.  apart from my foot all is well.

Looks like i dramatically over estimated the field yesterday, final result say 300 finishers (in my defence someone told me 700!)  Seb you were 1min 18sec ahead in 51st whilst i was 87th.  Also you werent too far behind Will Neill (a good fell runner too)

11/11/2012 at 10:32

SG, I saw your earlier post and nipped out accordingly. However, your departure time to thread update time was two minutes faster. So you win on chip time.

Mind you, I came back into the house £5 better off than when leaving it

Just had a look at that video clip get a mouthful of that!

Edited: 11/11/2012 at 10:40
11/11/2012 at 11:47

Dean, i can see where the L and R bits of that run kick in, but where' the S exactly?

Have to laugh at the "slight" over estimation! That'd be one hell of a field!! 300 is more standard...but clearly still good standard if you're only in the 80s...though I'm guessing you're either road biased, or are quite new to xc?

one of the joys of xc running is of course beating someone that has a road race time minutes ahead of your pb, and you use it as some kind of shaper of what you could potentially run.

Whilst at the same time ignoring the person you're miles ahead of on the road, yet who beats you on the xc

Ric, the finding money runs are the best.

Edited: 11/11/2012 at 11:48
11/11/2012 at 12:17
There were over 700 finishers! 300 in Div 1, 213 in Div 2 and 200 in Div 3. I would have come 9th in Div2 and won Div 3. Way better than last year. Either way I'm going to struggle to do so well if the courses get easier.
Don't know how Dean ran 10m this morning. I've had to use the foam roller for last half hour! May jog later. Our club didn't have a tent Dean! The juniors get all that jazz but seniors left out in the rain.
11/11/2012 at 12:31

Good racing guys. Looks like a diffiuclt course to get anywhwre near the pace you guys managed. Sounds like an absolute blinder from you Seb. You definitely excel in the rough stuff - just compare our similar 10M road times to how far ahead of me you were at Lad's Leap!

Pretty crap week for me all told! Calf was too sore to run up until Friday, but since then I've been suffering with some form of virus. I spent all day in bed yesterday, forced myself out this morning into the crisp sunshine and struggled round 5M at 9:11 pace - big mistake, especially as the calf felt sore at the end as well. Hey ho, I'll never learn! Back to bed, and hope I feel better tomorrow.

11/11/2012 at 12:31

how are the divisions sorted out Seb?  The better clubs in the higher divison, and naturally the better runners gravitating to the higher placed clubs?

These days I love a high quality race on the road for better chance of a pb, but xc i think it would just be dispiriting!

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