Moraghan Training - Stevie G

unsuprisingly im with dachs on this as i like to blast around the track too.  If you can run that pace, with no recovery issues in future days, then why not?  train fast to race fast

you mention Frankies session there and i agree that doesnt sound like a smart session as you had recovery issues which impacted on training.  but were your legs dead because you werent use to training at that intensity, so maybe the session was fine just not for you as you werent used to those zones.

i wonder if i ran the "right" paces in training would i have the race times i had in 2012?  Is the fact i push the track harder than i should allowed me to make the step up each time. Of course i would improve anyway as im still on the early improvement curve but would my times have been slower to date?

I don't think many of us around here would turn our noses up at running a half marathon at 84 seconds per 400m pace.

Dean, it's impossible to say if your improvement would have been as rapid unless you cloned yourself and kept all factors bar training methods the same.

Like you say you're still on your early running career improvement curve. To some extent anything will improve you, unless you get injured. You got your training fairly professional early on, whereas Bus, me and others did any old iron for years.

It's when you hit that plateau zone that you might need to consider a change in plan, like I had to....the very premise for this thread!

ps the intensity of that sesh with Frankie's lot was "maximum speed". Bearing in mind i was also still involved in footy back then, and used to sprinting, and it still took that out of me, I can only imagine what it'd be like now

It is an interesting one about pace zones. I tend to do my short intervals far faster than 10k pace. It does seem logical to do sshort reps faster than race pace, if only to make race pace seem more comfortable! Unfortunately for me though there's been no rapid improvement in race times to justify it . Equally, SG, the appraoch of training at the pace you are aiming for seems sensible. I guess its horses for courses though and both approaches seem to be producing the results for you guys whihc is all that matters really!

Changed my mind about a rest day today, as the legs seemed OK and it might be the last time for a while I can hit the pavements, so went for a tempo. Not a big session, but OK as an extra run, with 5.1M completed at 6:30 pace overall, with the middle 3.75 being the tempo bit at an average 6:05. A bit off the 6 I was targeting, but not surprising given 1M was slightly uphill and my legs weren't exactly fresh after yesterday!

Bus, don't forget I'll have 3k and 5k pace sessions fairly regularly, when I don't aim to race at those distance. So the angle of racing faster than target distance is well covered.

It's just that one of the principles of my training is you don't do further distance in reps than the pace zone you're running at. so only 2 1/2miles at 5k pace,  etc

bus, brave doing tempo the day after a long xc, especially given the scare last week! However, good pace reached, especially off no real warm up. Was time tight? Sat is still on for me, if roads are fine, and if your wife did do the kids run!

6 at lunch, nothing too special, around 7.08 pace. could feel the hip gently, but I guess until it needs to stop me, I'll press on and massively strengthen each day. Like Stevie See said the other day, it's funny how you don't feel these minor things in a race at all. When it's just you and there's nothing else to think about that's when you feel them

The Bus wrote (see)

It is an interesting one about pace zones. I tend to do my short intervals far faster than 10k pace. It does seem logical to do sshort reps faster than race pace, if only to make race pace seem more comfortable!

this this this!

The Bus wrote (see)

 Equally, SG, the appraoch of training at the pace you are aiming for seems sensible.

oh! but this this this too!

for me i go over race pace for short stuff for the reason Bus gives but for longer reps i will try to run at race pace. My training before telford was mind numbingly similar every week you may remember, mile reps @ 5.20 pace.  this was purely to give me confidence and get used to trotting out my target pace for that race so it became familiar

That looks a tasty session Bus, how are you feeling about wokingham?  signs look promising from afar

Bus, that's a really good pace given the circumstances.

When I first joined the club and ran under a different coach more geared towards beginners, I ran the reps at actual 10K pace, as per his instructions.  However, I used to end some of them feeling far too fresh for my liking.  Having said that, I was improving then as well, so who knows who's right.  I do know that running short reps like 400s at 1:22-1:23 pace (i.e. 10K PB pace) would feel incredibly slow.

I also have doubts about whether it would be much benefit to get used to the feel of race pace by running on the track.  When doing reps/intervals, 10K pace on the track feels quite a lot easier than 10K pace on the road does.  When I do reps on the road I do try to do them at 10K race pace, because it feels the same effort level (and I also use the same course as one of the local 10K's, so it's excellent practice for that particular race).

Not that I know anything about physiology, but if pushed to guess, I would have thought that the train fast to run fast approach advocated by Dean would be even more applicable to those on a plateau, who have more than enough practice at running at their race pace - that's the problem!  But clearly, as shown by SG recently, the pace zone approach is working.

Anyway, my total ignorance in these matters is why I generally just shut up and follow the coach's sessions...

Mixed feelings Dean to be honest! I'm behind where I wanted to be, as I was really hoping to get in some long tempos at close to target HMP for a bit of a confidence booster, as well as some long progression runs. 

All I've got to go on at the moment is the Great South Run result and a 10k in Dec. I hope that I've not lost anything since then but its been a bit of a mixed bag of largely unfocussed training ever since! If today had come out as 4M at sub 6 pace with effort to spare that'd be one thing, but it was hard work, albeit with reason.  Last week's bizarre, but short-lived, injury cost me the first long tempo, and the weather has meant some changed plans this week but lets see how the next two weeks end up!

I think the bit that's getting lost a little is that if I'm targetting 10k and halfs, doing 3-5k and then 10k pace IS actually doing reps quicker than the target race pace.

You then also have times where you're getting used to doing the race pace in question for longer volumes.

So I don't think we're as massively different in philosophy as it appears.

The bit that is different is the volume at the faster paces.

Dachs, you did 5miles or so yesterday, at what is probably not even your 3k pace, whereas i'd probably limit a 3k session to something like 8x300 ie 2,400metres total.

It certainly is hard to do say 10x400s at 5k pace as they feel very slow, but I'd disagree that 16x400 at 10k pace is a doss...it's not a killer but it's slowly dawns on you

The Bus wrote (see)

Mixed feelings Dean to be honest! I'm behind where I wanted to be, as I was really hoping to get in some long tempos at close to target HMP for a bit of a confidence booster, as well as some long progression runs. 

All I've got to go on at the moment is the Great South Run result and a 10k in Dec. I hope that I've not lost anything since then but its been a bit of a mixed bag of largely unfocussed training ever since! If today had come out as 4M at sub 6 pace with effort to spare that'd be one thing, but it was hard work, albeit with reason.  Last week's bizarre, but short-lived, injury cost me the first long tempo, and the weather has meant some changed plans this week but lets see how the next two weeks end up!

make saturday happen son. that'll be a good tempo for you, and with good company (ish!)

Why, who else is coming ? Trouble is, we're gonna be under a foot of snow by Saturday! On the plus side, my son's footie will almost certainly be cancelled...

Perhaps a pacey XC sesh if you can get up the hill to Hazlemere?

Dean doing 5:20's for practise pace seems logical to me. A question of tempo and balance. Co-ordination training.

My experience of training with a group of guys on the track and on the road is that none of them ever trained at race pace.

On the road there was effort but still slower than they'd race at over 10k to half marathon.

On the track they ran at a faster pace than they'd ever do their races at.

The idea of running at a particular pace for less than maximum distance struck them as ludicrous. Why do a 400m in 84 seconds when you can do 67 seconds?

Sub 74 mins for a half marathon! Would you bother practising 84 seconds for 400m?

Its a point that plenty of runners only feel they've acheived anything if they are wiped out.

that's of course what races are for Ric

I haven't trained with anyone quicker since I can even remember. Good job, as otherwise i'd end up doing their training not my own!

Bus, let's see how the weather pans out. Was gently snowing on my 4miler just then.

I think we could do the easy, steady, MP 4mile sections better offroad than I could have done Tuesdays 6xHMP to Steady segments, as this is a progression rather than constant ups and downs in pace. They'd be crazily demanding off road.

RicF wrote (see)

Sub 74 mins for a half marathon! Would you bother practising 84

That would be crazy, as noone would do 400 reps at HMP?

Rob Denmark used to do his 400's in 62 seconds. 5000m pb 13:08, so not so off pace.

A 48 minute 10 mile runner called Kevin Macdonald (Hillingdon AC) said that practising actual race pace always seems a bit of a waste of time. But if you realise the purpose is about co-ordination at optimum pace then not so.

I don't go quite that far but I'll do repeat 200's at 7% faster than I expect to race at over the 30 minutes it takes for the session, ie 30 x 200m.

reading the questions thread to Steve Smythe, some top ex runner and now coach, someone basically says to him they don't want to follow a plan, but want to improve their marathon time

What kind of magic solution do they honestly think they'll get?

"yeah just run whatever you fancy when you fancy, and you'll smash your target"?

Good work Matt. roll on the spring eh!

This is completely unrelated to anything, but I laughed so hard my stomach hurt. I insist you watch the full 5mins, it's a treat!

I want a favourite line from each of you

Matt - what pace are you doing the morning runs? They should really be setting you up for the evening session not knocking you out!

SG - 1.18. Not a half marathon prediction but how long i managed to listen to that 'music' video

Stevie G . wrote (see)

reading the questions thread to Steve Smythe, some top ex runner and now coach, someone basically says to him they don't want to follow a plan, but want to improve their marathon time

What kind of magic solution do they honestly think they'll get?

"yeah just run whatever you fancy when you fancy, and you'll smash your target"?

I'm with you on this SG, there has to be some structure and plan. Its a bit like using a map. There's scale to consider but to reach the destination you have to recognise where you are in the first place. Then devise a plan to get there.

I follow a long term plan that is based on a pattern I saw in a book called 'Winning without Drugs'. 

The pattern allowed for phases of endurance, power and speed by giving greater emphasis to one phase without completely neglecting the others.

I'm using the bike to build the power phase at the moment. Must be working since the last couple of off-road runs were at the same average speed as I did in the middle of summer. 

As you know, the conditions are slightly more challenging at the moment.