Moraghan Training - Stevie G

Stevie see wrote (see)

Stevie G . wrote (see)

Stevie, beware that in a 4 mile block, if it's your true tempo pace, and you're not on the verge of a breakthrough, 2miles at that pace is tough. Maybe 2miles, 2mins then 2miles might be an intro

Thanks for the heads up - I've done plenty of research and going off the general advice of "it's circa 10 mile pace" and using Daniels' VDOT formulae, it comes out as 5:58. Might be worth playing by ear and seeing how I feel at 2 miles.

It's funny, as I don't consider myself a particularly "weak" runner, but i'd never do 4miles in a row at HMP, let alone the faster true tempo.

Yet people tell me 6miles at HMP is doable. Though they are usually slower than me   I've done a 2x3mile off 90secs though. So I expect a 6might be doable if I wanted an epic smash around!!

Dean, just to check, when you say "tempo", do you mean the 10mile pace/Threshold/True Tempo pace we're meaning, or do you just mean anything faster than "steady"?

Tempo seems to mean different things to different people.

I remember reading people saying they were doing a 45min tempo, and thinking, that must be more MP.

Good session today Stevie by the sound of it, and a good piece of mental effort on the treadmill Dean.

Tempos used to be my staple quality session, and for a long while they were coming out better than my race performances would suggest, with 5M at 6mm pace with no warm up on occasion!!!  I seem to struggle a lot more with them now mind for some reason. I think 4M at that pace is a reasonable aim though Stevie, just don't beat yourself up if you have to slow down.

Not sure about the Noosa IC - presumably makes transition quikcer, whihc is not something I've had to worry about so far!

Seb - there's been a lot of discussion about the Orocs on the FRA site and their abilities on ice. I think the idea is that the rubber studs around the metal dobbs are fairly soft and retract on contact with hard ice so that the dobb bites. This supposedly means that they have good all round ability, and can even be used on tarmac. The thing that puts me off with the Yaktrak, Microspikes type thing is that you need to take them on and off, and then carry them. Fine if the whole run is on ice, but most of my runs just seem to need that bit of extra bite intermittently. I guess the proof of the pudding will be in the eating, but as the forecast is for it to become warm and very wet at the weekend I might never find out at this rate!

Right, big quandary now is whether to do my long run tomorrow or not while I'm working at home. It's looking increasingly likely that I'll need to run to work on Thursday as there's still dodgy conditions on the road for cycling and the snow is coming down heavily again here!

Good to see everyone still training strong despite the dreaded snow!

Loving the off road runs in the snow but must admit I'm also starting to become a fan of the “dreadmill” myself (dare I say it!), particularly for interval stuff as times are not affected by weather and ground conditions etc.  Usually use it once a week for 3-4 miles at 5k pace with 90s rest or do a sprint session alternating between 1 minute hard and 1 minute easy.   Run steady before and after to make it up to 8 miles and make the session worthwhile. 

Dean, a 14second range for tempo sounds too big, so I thought i'd look at the numbers!

a 10k of 33.03 gives a 10k pace of 5.19

Therefore, you can see that 5.23 is asking a lot, and no wonder you can't get close to the top end, as it's borderline 10k pace!!

Your 10k current zone would probably be say 5.17-5.22

So too fast is one issue, and maybe too many miles at that pace another.

I'd suggest your "true" tempo/Threshold/10mile race pace is more like 5.32-5.37 flexible on a couple of secs....

McMillan seems to have flaws in both offering up too fast paces at times, as well as suggesting ridiculous short distance times (5k&10k) off 10m and Half marathon

I'd wager if you went and did a session of 2miles at 5.32-5.37, 90secs, then 2miles 5.32-37 you'd come through it feeling worked out but a fairly hard effort.

good advice SG thanks- but i have a question. i thought tempos were about knitting together many miles and learning the cope with the fatigue at a fast pace. So whilst that session would be tough it would feel like an extension to my intervals rather than something else due to the recovery.    Or am i mixing the terminology up here? i thought tempos were say 4+ miles no recovery and intervals had recovery.

I am tempted to do that session on the track though

Well I followed the recent talk here last night as the snow was falling again and hit the dreadmill for my interval session. Nice and warm and great to get some decent leg turnover! Can't see myself doing it very often but was quite a welcome change.

Terminology seems to be quite interchangable to me but whether it's Threshold or Tempo, I would always aim to run anything more than 6 minutes at the lower end of my threshold zone and intervals at the faster pace of the zone.

I start my 12 week marathon programme from Monday and will definitely be doing a lot more tempo runs over the coming weeks. SS - as i see us as the same when it comes to pace and training, the 5.58 pace you suggest sounds spot on. The last tempo I did was a 25min tempo on 27 December and I covered just over 4 miles in 5.59 average.

Interesting re the cruise intervals Seb. Only really done those once, and it was a good session (3 x 2M at HM pace). Anyone tried an icy track using spikes?

More fresh snow ruling out the bike and having to be at work tomorrow and friday means no LSR today as I need to save some energy for running to the station and back. That means shifting the long run to Sunday. Not ideal, as means I won;t be able to get a proper long run in the following week - oh and its forecast for mild temperatures and heavy rain on Sunday! I'm hoping that will mean clear pavements, but more likely just loads of horrible slush intersperesd with slippy bits still left over from the snow! My glass really is half empty at the moment 

Dean, all my advice comes with the caveat that i'm no expert myself, but am trained by an expert

Some of the chaps above put a bit more reasoning to it, but I wouldn't ever want to run 4miles continuously at faster than HMP. And personally 3miles at that, perhaps x2 with a 90sec break is better.

Put it this way, if you can run 4miles continuously or so at close to current 10k pace in training , you're working way too hard, or you're due a breakthrough and thus it isn't your 10k pace!

My trusty cope of FIRST states:

"The tempo portion of the workout is typically 3 to 5 miles at 10k pace or slightly slower. For marathon training, the tempo portion is extended to 8 to 10 miles at planned MP"

Warmup is typically 1-2 easy miles gradually increasing the pace so you are close to tempo by the end of the warmup. Cooldown is a mile or 10 minutes of easy running.

Some of the tempos are split into smaller secions with an easy mile in between

I've tested the tempo pace stuff enough to establish that its challenging, satisfying, tiring and can leave one with the glow of achievement to match your now glowing limbs. Its fun but doesn't help progress.

I hold with recovery runs which is just jogging wu/wd pace. And up to threashold which get to about 85% of tops. But the area between that and interval work for me is a 'no go' area.

The reason is there's an effort level that not intensive enough to get the desired training response and also too intensive to add to the base fitness. Just wearing, that's all.

thanks for the above all....not sure its any clearer than when i started the day but at least i have more info

found a 7mile out and back stretch nr work with next to no snow/ice on it, slightly undulating and icy wind but i didnt care as i was running outside in normal trainers and not trail shoes.  So 7.25miles @ 6.29 ave pace includes a warm up so you can tell i enjoyed the experience.   

Just back from a snowy 6km in the woods. Tried to maintain some pace, but ended up concentrating on staying upright.

Dean how do the DS compare the GTs? Do you overpronate a lot?

RicF wrote (see)

I've tested the tempo pace stuff enough to establish that its challenging, satisfying, tiring and can leave one with the glow of achievement to match your now glowing limbs. Its fun but doesn't help progress.

I hold with recovery runs which is just jogging wu/wd pace. And up to threashold which get to about 85% of tops. But the area between that and interval work for me is a 'no go' area.

The reason is there's an effort level that not intensive enough to get the desired training response and also too intensive to add to the base fitness. Just wearing, that's all.

In HR terms that would be Z3 you're missing out on. Old-school (sorry!) thinking is that it is a no-mans land. Recent discussion would suggest there is a training benefit there.

I'm open to anything that doesn't hurt too much and makes me faster. Tempo/Track Intervals/LSR.

Ironcat - i am not a big overpronator but the gait analysis suggest i need the stability shoe.  GT2170s are more cushioned and heavier as are more used for longer slower mileage.....the ds racers are very light with less cushioning but still has some stability. i only use them for racing and track intervals.   There is also the DS trainer (not sure if its got the stability) but has more cushioning than the racer but is still lighter than the GT2170

Not sure you can say Tempos don't help progress Ric. I would never have gone sub 1:20 for a hlf wihtout them, as at that point they were my only quality sessions. I'm also not sure I'd ever describe one as fun either . That said, all my recent PBs have come off the back of intervals rather than tempos, so even from my own limited experience, they may be more effective.

10M hilly xc in the snow again for me at lunchtime, with some fartleks thrown in for good measure. Reasonably pleased, as it was my best pace for a while (8:14)

good work in the snow Bus, not content with snow as an issue you throw some hills in to make it more of a challenge!

Seb - just had an email saying midlands xc is ON, they are expecting snow on the ground,  rain/sleet falling on you and a icy wind to contend with.   Have to say im happy im missing this one!

Yeah, and I was dragging a tractor tyre . Not much choice with the hills Dean where I am, but I do probably string together a couple of extras for fun...

Sounds like proper xc conditions for that one then!