Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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23/01/2013 at 17:08

It's simple with running, there's the runs you enjoy, social, easy or scenic.

Then there's the quality/racing, that is hard to enjoy as you're smashing yourself

Today should have been a 10 and a 4, but as it was so darn late when I got out, I just fused it into a 12.5miler. Was snowing like mad in the last couple of miles, and just to add some more mental torture I went past my own door at 10.5miles

On the plus side. Evening sitting about tonight doing nothing

23/01/2013 at 18:19
I reckon, if your interested at all in my view, that it is possible to do extended runs at HMP. Up to seven miles in one block I have managed on my own in training. And it really does create those breakthroughs. They hurt like hell and you have to be fit in the first place to even attempt them but do them reasonably regularly (at least once every other week in a training cycle) and will bring you on.

I too like the cruise intervals and a brutal session that I did before I went sub 70 for the half was 20mins HMP, 4mins easy, 15mins HMP, 3mins easy, 10mims HMP, 2mins easy, 5mins HMP. Think I covered about 9.4miles at HMP in the 50 mins of effort. It gave me the confidence that the sub 70 attempt was on.

Henry ford once said 'whether you believe you can or whether you can't, you're right.' Now whilst that is a little bit naff I think there's quite a bit of truth in it.
23/01/2013 at 18:24

Race Jase, I think we need to stop you at the "went sub 70 for the half" part.

Slightly different league old son

What took you from say a high 1hr 17 to the next barrier, a say 1hr 15 would you say? And then to say a 1hr 13?

Edited: 23/01/2013 at 18:25
23/01/2013 at 18:29
Without wanting to be facetious mileage and tempo runs.
23/01/2013 at 18:37

I thought as much...although 60+ average and some tough tempos is still drawing the improvements...

are we talking silly mileage? 100+?

23/01/2013 at 18:49
It's a mental thing isn't it? Ultimately, we're all physicly capable of running close to half marathon pace for the full distance in training (I say 'almost' only bacause you may have prepared for a race in a way that will affect your physical preparation, eg rested or trained less in the preceding few days). The factors that make race pace feel easier on race day are mental ones, ie the motivation of being in a race, the different perceived effort of running with others etc. People respond to differing extents to motivations like that, which is why some find HMP easier in training thanothers.

For a while after returning to running , when I was much less fit and running much more casually, i actually found it difficult to hit my training pace in races. I put this down to (a) nerves and (b) being used to running alone, I actually found running with people around me distracting and occasionally dispiriting. It's completely different now, but illustrates how people react differently to different cues, motivations and pressures.
23/01/2013 at 19:05

you can't replicate the adrenaline race day brings, and the knowing it's for real.

23/01/2013 at 19:08
That is true, in the majority of cases. But the extent to which it is true differs from person to person.
23/01/2013 at 19:20

I should mention that I've run plenty of tempos in the past but not now. The problem is recovery, or lack of.

Personally I'm aiming for almost instant recovery from any training session I do. A sign I'm right on top of the loading levels.

We do need to overload to some extent but if I'm still feeling the residue from a training session 48 hours after completion then I deem the session inapropriate.

I need a fair amount of control during testing sessions. With a fast steady run I lose control, getting clumsy when tired and ship too much damage.

That's what I get from a tempo run so I avoid them. If I want to mash myself in one long hit, then I'll do it in a race. 

I'm aware that they are a favourite with many runners. I discovered they were a good way of masking residuel aches and pains, probably on account of the levels of heat and endorphins kicking in.

Unfortunately, going out the next day became a problem.

Each to his own on this one.

23/01/2013 at 19:31

Adrenaline is remarkable in how it can draw a performance. A couple of examples:

Fatima Whitbread said the furthest she threw the Javelin in training was 60m. Couldn't chuck it any more than that. But she didn't worry because it meant she could hit 70m! in competition due to the adrenaline.

A weight-lifter looking at the weight he'd just broken the world record with. Mentioned that he never got anywhere such weights in training. Only the adrenaline of competition produces such performances.

Remarked that at that moment he could hardly believe he could get his winning lift off the ground, let alone overhead.

Like the almost casual mention of a sub 70 half marathon RJ.

Reminds me of a club mate over hearing a guy relating his latest effort in the London Marathon to his mate. "I went through 10 miles in 48 minutes, I thought it was a little quick, but didn't let it worry me".

Edited: 23/01/2013 at 19:38
23/01/2013 at 19:48

Ric, something I've noticed in older runners (i'm sure you won't mind that term!), is that they don't do (m)any tempo sessions, and instead prefer to do loads of races instead.

Is that a recovery thing, an enjoyment thing, or simply has the will gone as you bid to hang onto your level rather than work your way upto your peak as per earlier days?

Anyone passing 10miles in 48mins within a marathon would surely have to be one of the best in the world? The chap who won Maidenhead 10 in 48mins a few years ago, forget his name, but wins Wokingham each year is a British level runner, and that's obviously his flat out 10mile pace.

23/01/2013 at 20:11
Race Jase wrote (see)
I reckon, if your interested at all in my view, that it is possible to do extended runs at HMP. Up to seven miles in one block I have managed on my own in training. And it really does create those breakthroughs. They hurt like hell and you have to be fit in the first place to even attempt them but do them reasonably regularly (at least once every other week in a training cycle) and will bring you on.

Combined with your half time Jase, case closed, QED 

SG - how very dare you! Must admit though, I would prefer a race over a tempo given the choice! Not sure it's an age thing as much as experience telling me to ask if the pain is all worth it for a tempo !!  That said, I  still try and do them but kind of view interval sessions as the soft option sometimes! Ric - I get where you ar coming fromrecovery wise - that's also an age thing to some extent. I can't take the punsihment I could even compared to just a few years ago....



23/01/2013 at 20:12

Bus, I don't count you as an older runner, in the sense that you're still hitting pbs and on the up.

23/01/2013 at 20:30

Thanks for that Dean, unsure whether I'm going to run, ideal hardcore conditions but I've got a feeling im going to tweak the Achilles again if I blast it. Might head up to the venue and see what it looks like and how I feel, and take it from there.

Really struggled with grip on tonights off roader, 6miles@7:36,  lots of ice now, only to return home and find the Yaktrax had been delivered earlier and could have used them! slipped them onto a pair of flat loafers and went outside to test on an ice patch doing bleep test style backwards and forwards runs, perfect grip, unbelievable. will test on the trails tomorrow.

Tempos could probably be carried out quite easily in a race situation, say 5mile races, if you can hold back!

23/01/2013 at 20:41

SG, its recovery to some extent but effective training more.

A simple example.

You can run for 5 miles at 95-98% of top speed for the distance in one go. What's the training effect? By what logic can this improve your speed over the distance?

Or you can run 5 miles made up of 400m intervals with sufficient recovery where the speed of the runs are 5% faster than you would manage in one continous run. 

In the first example who are going slower than race pace, in the latter example, faster. Are we training to run faster or slower?

If I only jogged slowly in training, then a tempo run would be a halfway house to racing. Its relative speed.

Personally I don't bother with tempo runs because they've been replaced with more effective interval sessions.



Cortina5    pirate
23/01/2013 at 20:57

Horse for courses Ric!.

My understanding is that intervals are for increasing VO2 max, running speed etc. Tempos are for increasing lactate threshold. Of course I can't explain which of my quality runs have improved what; I do track intervals and tempos (when there is no ice on the ground!).

I prefer intervals tbh, as the pain is over quicker.

23/01/2013 at 21:06

Firstly apologies for my horrible typo in my post.

Stevie - not crazy mileage. In my last marathon build up I probably peaked at 87 and averaged c75 over 18 weeks.

I also have lots of down time after a major race so when I get back to it I am incredibly unfit but I believe this also helps long term in getting the body to recover completely from the main races. I will typically have two A races for the year and simply dont have the metal reserves to cope with any more. Last year I didn't break 3000 miles so less than 60 average for the year.

I know it's not really your bag but I bet if you were to train for a marathon, you would get fitter than you have ever been. The long runs of 20 miles plus give you so much, and I wouldn't be surprised to see you chip minutes off your half times if you did. You may say that you dont fancy doing 20 milers because you find 15s and 16s long enough when half training but that is because you are training for a half. I can guarantee that if you were training for a marathon then 20 milers wouldnt seem so bad after the first couple! Because it's virtually all in the mind!

I see the logic of VO2 max intervals too but I dont think you can do them for too long without experiencing too many peaks and troughs. That has certainly been my experience but then I do tend to use them as icing when trying to peak for my a-race. If I was more focused on 10ks than marathons and halves then granted I would do more of them.

Cortina5    pirate
23/01/2013 at 21:11

I think you have some usefu points there Jase, especially the grammatical recovery.

I did a lot of long distance training, starting back in July '11 (3 months before Beachy Head marathon), then continued the LD stuff until July '12. I think this has given me a huge base that I am now just beginning to build upon with speed work.

23/01/2013 at 21:12

Ironcat, think you're right. There's no way you can run to your potential in halves (or should it be halfs?) and marathons if you dont have a well developed lactate threshold.

23/01/2013 at 21:18

Valueable thoughts RJ. Maybe the perfect angle is to train for a marathon, but NOT do the actual race?

That way you get the fitness benefit, but not the massive risk of the race day pace.

I suppose my main thoughts, in honesty, are that it can feel like constantly doing the rehab to keep me doing my current level, so upping it from here might risk a breakdown.

But I suppose you have to risk breakdown, or you'd never improve!

One thing I noticed on my 12.5miler today, was just how non tired afterwards I was. I remember the days a 10miler would utterly tucker me out for the rest of the day and I'd have to sleep! Probably being able to use road trainers for the first time in a week helped!

Edited: 23/01/2013 at 21:19
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