Over 60s training.

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01/01/2013 at 23:43

Welcome Bob Welcome farrochie (love the name)

farrochie sounds exciting ny recent long races apart from the 10km i guess a long time to prepare Some  people  do seem to do well on less  mileage  others not so we're all different

I'm a youngster  here as well

01/01/2013 at 23:44

Farrochie
            Stay around with this thread would be my first advice, as there is some
real knowledgeable runners who post.

02/01/2013 at 07:43
Good morning,

This will be briefer than I have words for, in response to both Bob's and Farrochie's posts. The reason being is that we are going out early thus time is pushed.

Bob
Thank you for your inspiring post. I have no doubt that your coach is correct. Although 20 miles at present does seem a to be a little short for a marathon, but you do say that this will rise a little.

When I turned 70 I broke 2 World Records on the track namely the 5000 and 1500, plus the odd British Record here and there over a period of 3 years and I had certainly had 2 to 3 years working in the Gym in addition to my running training. Although, my mileage was possible nearer to 30 + miles a week. But who knows what I would have achieved with slightly less miles. Certainly women lose muscle as they age even faster than men.

You have inspired me to start my kettle bell training ASAP again.

I didn't used to do my weights in my track racing summer months.

At present I am unmotivated by racing but do want to keep my fitness going also I do enjoy running fast, and running in general but know that I need strength too in order to maintain this pleasure.

I would be very interested to know what you running training consists of now, what sessions your are doing in the way of speed etc. I would also be VERY interested to hear a what you are doing in the gym. From what I understand the work done there should relate to the muscles used in running, and in a way that they are used. Of course core stability is very important too.

I have spent many sessions at the Running School in Chiswick, and the message there certainly was that muscle strength starts to leave one's body rapidly from the age of 50 yrs onwards, so work is needed to be done on muscles to keep up with the decline plus extra work to gain something too.

For me resistance work leaves me feeling very drained of energy. Which shows that I need to do more.

Please stay with us, I, personally will be extremely interested to hear how your training comes along.

Btw what is a S & C coach? Your 10k time is very respectable. I would expect this to drop with more strength training, my 10k time most certainly did.

Farrochie's
There are many ways we can recommend to you as to how to approach the marathon in the way that would suit you. One way would be to look at Bruce Tulloch's book called Running over 40. He has a get round marathon schedule which includes instructions for the longer run to include walking. But others on this thread will come up with ideas but this is all I have time for right now.



I must exit post haste now.
Edited: 02/01/2013 at 07:56
02/01/2013 at 08:07
Just remembered

Farrochie
I have just remembered Hal Higdon's book Masters Running. There is a training programme for Masters in there on page 209 which has a 60 min walk every week. However, itI also does start with a longer run once a week of 6 miles which builds up week by week to 12 miles with only 2 x 18 miles during the programme. The rest of the week only includes 3 runs which add up to around 12 miles.


I am really out of here NOW.
aws
02/01/2013 at 08:24

Good morning and welcome to farrochie and Bob Depledge.

I'm the old boy of this thread and I don't really do much. The only advice I can give is "Hang about because there's a lot of running knowledge and wisdom on here".

5.09M; 1:06:47.4; 13:08/M; 3°C

That's typical of me at present though I have been faster, but I don't let it bother me. (As I keep telling myself)

Columba - No I didn't, I was simply late getting to bed.

al

02/01/2013 at 08:30
Morning all

Bob & Farrochie

There are some very experienced mature runners on here like Ceal our own Gold Girl

I just managed to fit my runs in around my family. I love doing marathon, thou slowly.

Ceal - I better keep up with my shredding then as only have 2 years left.
02/01/2013 at 11:12

Thanks, all.

When I did my marathons ('82, '83,'84, '85) I was very disciplined in my training and did plenty halfs, 10-milers and 10km (Joe Seeley 10km in Belfast gave me my best time of sub 38min). My performance improved significantly when I put in pyramid sessions on the track, along with the lsd of 22 miles on a Sunday; I always felt I should have done more of the 22s.  I was also in a running club of like-minded people, so there was a big social element.

I have 2 runs (jogs) at the moment one around 5 km and the other just over 10km, both with hills (NE Scotland), and I'm running between 3 and 5 times a week. I find the 10km tough. Jumpers knee and achilles problems don't help. So now thinking about doing another marathon is more a motivational question for me, which I why I'll target 2014.

I've got a lot of back reading to do on this thread, but thanks for comments so far!

02/01/2013 at 13:36

Good Morning,
More snow and cold for me, so it will probably be another treadmill session at the gym today.

Bob and farrochie,
Welcome to you both, it is always good to chat to other older runners.
I am 66 and having been running since High School. I have always been relatively serious about my running, achieving a 32 min 10k in my 30s. I have only run 7 marathons and much prefer the half, where I PB'd at 1:17. Such times are long gone, of course, but I have gone under 1:40 for the half as a 60+.
To achieve anything as a runner you must be consistent with your training and as you age that gets even more important. I think what form your training takes is very much an individual thing. I know for me I need to maintain at least 30 miles a week or I start to lose it, particularly endurance.

If I assume that you do not just want to survive a marathon, but actually race it getting the best time you can, then you need long runs as well as weekly mileage. You need to prepare your body to run for longer than 3 hours and the only way to do that is to run long.

When I turned 60 it was obvious to me that I was losing a lot of general body tone, despite running 30+ miles a week. I started an intense gym programme aimed at restoring upper body strength. This include Pilates and Tone-up classes as well as lots of weights. It took over 500 hours of gym work to restore my body tone and strength to levels I was at in my 40s, but I did do it.
As ceal pointed out it is very draining so the first year was very tough and hard to maintain any sort of speed work as I would be falling asleep by 8.
During this period I did injure my achilles badly and have struggled with it for a couple of years. I am now nearly fully recovered and once again back to 30+ miles a week and restoring speed and endurance reasonably quickly.
There have been some huge benefits from the increased body strength but gaining 10lbs has not been one of them. 

My advice to you both would be to maintain 30 miles a week if you can and work on increasing your overall body tone. The marathon is not a speed session and I think the need for speed work is modest. It is, in my view, more important to adapt your body so that it can handle a long period of hard work. 

I would not follow a rigid schedule as you need flexibility to listen to your body and adapt your programme accordingly. This I have found is far more important in older runners than the general population for whom most schedules are designed.

Over the last 6 or 7 years I have collected a vast amount of personal running data as I passed through many training cycles, most focused on the half. I have detailed records of heart rates, cadence, pace, stride length for most forms of training, including tempos, intervals, fartleks, hills etc. I can now look at my performance on any training session and know with a high degree of confidence what training I need to improve my fitness to run a particular event.
It sounds good, but it can be a bit demoralising when you compare a tempo run of 2 years ago with today's effort. If I can be of any help with any particular training type just post a question and I am sure you will get lots of answers.

Good luck

Mick 

02/01/2013 at 13:46

Mick6.

Thanks, that's great advice and I recognise the length of time that will be needed. I've been doing 25-35 km per week, but will step that up to miles. You're right, I don't want to grind out a sub-6 hour marathon, but 4:30 would be acceptable, given my 3:13 pb.

One question. I have tried to increase my cadence to reduce heel strike but I feel that my stride has shortened to a shuffle. Any good exercises to increase stride length?

02/01/2013 at 16:05

Bob, I couldn't agree more that spending time in the gym, especially as we get older, is the way to go as a supplement to running. I try to get to the gym every week, spending 75 minutes or so working on my core and legs.

farrochie, I've never done a marathon so can't offer advice on that. I hope it goes well for you. It sounds like you've had knee and achilles issues so staying free of injury will be especially important.

02/01/2013 at 16:17

I had a very enjoyable New Years Day race yesterday, the Morpeth 11K. What a pleasure to run in sunshine after the last two very wet races. Another plus was that it was a single lap. The last 10K I did, and virtually all the local XC races, are over three laps. Not a great fan of keep passing the same place, but I know it often can't be helped.

There was quite a stiff wind though and it was fairly cold, about 5 degrees. It's a lovely countryside course, starting from Morpeth and running through the pretty village of Mitford. The first mile's fairly level, although into the wind yesterday, then a couple of miles virtually all gradually uphill, followed by a descent back into Morpeth to finish on the grass by the river.

I did the 6.7 miles in 47m 18s, an average pace of 7:04 minutes a mile. Reckon that equates to about 43m 40s for 10K, so more than pleased with that on a hilly course and windy day. I was 3rd M60 and got a £15 voucher. I stayed for the presentation and got a little buzz from walking up to get the prize.

I've been promoted from 3rd to 2nd place M60 in the Saltwell 10K from a couple of weeks ago. The winner has disappeared from the results. I can only think he's been disqualified. Any other theories? I'm 90% sure the same runner was 1st over-60 in yesterday's race but can't access the full results to confirm. His club's 200 miles away from the NE so he stood out.

Mile splits from yesterday reflect the gradient profile :-

6:57, 7:23, 7:18, 7:28, 6:32, 6:40

Edited: 02/01/2013 at 16:38
02/01/2013 at 16:41

Great performance, Graham - well done! How nice to get a prize too, and be there to receive it. I can't think why a winner would disappear from the results unless something naughty had gone on either.

Welcome to Bob & farrochie. I too am an interloper on the thread, being 59 later this year, but as you have already seen, we have several people on this threrad who have excellent advice to give, which is why a number of us 'younger runners' are here (as well as the friendliness and encouragement that is in abundance). You have a nice long time to build back up, farrochie.

Having thought I would give marathons a complete miss this year, I have a friend at my running club who has asked if I'd be prepared to do one later in the year as a challenge with her. I'm seriously contemplating Bournemouth on October 6th now, as it's nice and local!

02/01/2013 at 17:09

Hello and welcome Bob and farrouchie. I can't offer any advice, having never done a marathon (and if I did, would probably have to allow myself 6 hours for it). I didn't start running until my late 50s, getting on for 11 years ago now. There is lots of good advice to be had on this thread, - some of it you've already had, more will be forthcoming I'm sure.

Graham - congratulations on 3rd M60, you certainly deserved that prize and the "buzz" that went with it.

Impey - my brother walks like that Very Fast Walker you described. He has to slow down for me, or I have to trot to keep up.

02/01/2013 at 18:47
Congratulations Graham )

No have the stress of finding another storage place for our caravan as our one is being redeveloped Got the letter today and we have 3 months from the 21 December due to Christmas post. The place locally has to measure his pitch that's available and will have to visit one as far away as Ashford, Kent. That one might have to be a stop gap for now. We've also left messages on answer phones at others. It's a nightmare as our present storage as over 250 pitches.
02/01/2013 at 19:17

Graham,

That was a nice surprise for you get 2nd instead of 3rd.  Maybe that other o/60 guy cheated somewhere or in some way !
And....very well done in your Morpeth 11k, didn't sound an easy race but you ran superbly.

Columba,
So it wasn't your brother who was doing those long strides where I ran then .  I tell you what though I had to keep making a sneaky look back to make sure he wasn't about to overtake me !!

Bob and Farrochie,

Welcome to our thread where as others have said you will get plenty of tips and support on here.   Afraid I can't help much on marathon stuff, never done one at all !
I am the second oldest on here having started my running interest when I was 63 just over 10 years ago.  Not a fast runner but I do enjoy the occasional 10k race and certainly 5k parkrun events. Now just happy to stay fit and keep on running for as long as possible , taking part in races is a bonus.

Edited: 02/01/2013 at 19:18
02/01/2013 at 19:24

Glad to get a nice dry day to try my first run in 2013.  A little windy but certainly milder than of late.

Most of route was around the lake after warming up on muddy trail.
Mile laps...11.35, 10.40,  10.26,  10.10,  10.49.
For some strange reason the Garmin went dead in mile 4 but after pressing start button it soon came back on.  Total mileage 5.2

02/01/2013 at 19:39
Ceal & Mick6 - Ceal, found your post really interesting, your record extremely impressive, can only envy! S&C = Strength & Conditioning. You're right Mick, running doesn't keep body tone and as we age........ Also agree with the need to be flexible with any prog., that's where I went wrong with last yrs training for VLM. My coach has put together a 3 phase 16 wk prog, base work, main phase of strengthening, tapering. It includes squats, kettle bell swings, leg curls and lunges alongside inverted rows, dumbbell rows and face pulls (must be a joke here!). I also work on my hip flexors (bench stretches &hip thrusts) which should enable me to keep good stride length because with age our stride gets shorter as we run which has adverse effect on our running economy. My coach insists I maintain my weekly endurance work on the road but reduce hill work and sprints to a minimum at the moment, simply because the gym schedule, (session every 5 /6 days), replaces the need to do these type of runs and strengthens the same muscles in a more beneficial way than pounding the roads.
Graham L - great news about Morpeth. Know how you feel, I won my first ever race in a mixed aged field this summer (Devizes 5k), what a buzz. Interesting how you also advocate regular gym work as we get older. If I have one criticism of following training schedules on Smartcoach et al is that little or no credence is given to the need to do gym work. Mostly it's a cursory 'on days you don't run you can cross train' sort of comment.
I need no one to convince me that my coach knows his stuff but if i needed convincing i refer to Mo Farahs coach who made an interesting comment post Olympics .....' It's not the 120 miles Mo runs each week that made the difference, it's his 7 hrs a fortnight he spends in the gym'....say no more!
02/01/2013 at 20:09

Eventually got the results from yesterday's Morpeth 11K. The first M60 was the same runner whose name disappeared from the Saltwell 10K results, having been placed 1st M60 in that. Puzzling but I guess an open forum is not the place to speculate.

Lucky I kept going right to the line yesterday as the 4th M60 was only 10 seconds behind. He was 30 seconds ahead of me at Saltwell. I'd love to get to know the other M60s in the area but it's not easy.

Edited: 02/01/2013 at 20:11
02/01/2013 at 22:12
Ceal & Mick6 - Ceal, found your post really interesting, your record extremely impressive, can only envy! S&C = Strength & Conditioning. You're right Mick, running doesn't keep body tone and as we age........ Also agree with the need to be flexible with any prog., that's where I went wrong with last yrs training for VLM. My coach has put together a 3 phase 16 wk prog, base work, main phase of strengthening, tapering. It includes squats, kettle bell swings, leg curls and lunges alongside inverted rows, dumbbell rows and face pulls (must be a joke here!). I also work on my hip flexors (bench stretches &hip thrusts) which should enable me to keep good stride length because with age our stride gets shorter as we run which has adverse effect on our running economy. My coach insists I maintain my weekly endurance work on the road but reduce hill work and sprints to a minimum at the moment, simply because the gym schedule, (session every 5 /6 days), replaces the need to do these type of runs and strengthens the same muscles in a more beneficial way than pounding the roads.
Graham L - great news about Morpeth. Know how you feel, I won my first ever race in a mixed aged field this summer (Devizes 5k), what a buzz. Interesting how you also advocate regular gym work as we get older. If I have one criticism of following training schedules on Smartcoach et al is that little or no credence is given to the need to do gym work. Mostly it's a cursory 'on days you don't run you can cross train' sort of comment.
I need no one to convince me that my coach knows his stuff but if i needed convincing i refer to Mo Farahs coach who made an interesting comment post Olympics .....' It's not the 120 miles Mo runs each week that made the difference, it's his 7 hrs a fortnight he spends in the gym'....say no more!
02/01/2013 at 22:13

Evening all.
The cold bug has developed into a cough so I've avoided doing any training other than a bit of light walk/run, dog walks and some gardening.
Off to see new grandaughter tomorrow.

Welcome to the newcomers.I'm 72 with a lifetime of sport behind me but didn't start running until I was 55. I have a marathon PB of 3:53 done when I was 65.
 I started this thread years ago because of a lack of info on training for older runners and the situation has changed only marginally. There's quite a lot of info around but it's very personal because the rate of age degeneration is very variable and in this respect we are all at the mercy of our genes. However, it's a subject that could benefit from greater scientific research.
Gym work helps but running fast races depends as always on quality shorter runs for shorter  distances up to, say, 10k. If you want to run faster over longer distances you have to increase the mileage to build endurance. The limit for your training will depend on how quickly you can recover from each effort. The older you get the more recovery time you need. My 3:53 marathon was run off mainly 35 miles a week with some excursions over 40 mpw. My worst mistake a cpouple of years later was a 20 mile race 3 weeks before a marathon and I hadn't recovered properly.
Mo's fast times result from high mileage. The extra gym work is needed to take
 off the final few seconds.

Tracey
Decent Park Run result.

Impey
You clearly need to target a marathon before you get old.

farrochie
The old man's shuffle is our worst enemy as we age. You can do a couple of things to avoid it. The first is to keep flexible with plenty of gentle stretching, particularly concentrating on the lower back and everything connected with the hips and pelvis. The second is to concentrate on running form and make sure you pull your heels back gently as you run. This will increase your stride length and improve your pace. Finally, make sure your arm action is OK. Work your arms and your legs will follow with improved cadence and stride length.

Graham
Great pace and excellent placing. Well done. The buzz at award ceremonies is a just reward for work put in. Enjoy!
JJ

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