Overdone it?

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28/06/2012 at 14:13

Ran 16 miles last Sunday as a LSR as part of what I thought had been a gradual build up - ran 13.5 miles two weeks earleir and have been running 25 - 30 miles a week for a few weeks now with some fast 5 miles and 8 mile and 10 mile runs.

Felt a bit more stiff than expected at top of calves right into back of knee (never been stiff there before!) but also sore right heel and left shin a bit sore too (not really painful just aware of it sometimes when walking).

Took Tuesday off instead of doing scheduled easy 5 mile and rescheduled for tonight - all stiffness now gone but heel and shin still same - should I cancel, go for easy 2 mile (like a warm up and down but without the fast bit), is easy 5 mile okay?

I know this is really up to me but just wonder if anyone has experienced similar and what right approach is?

I'm trainig for the Morecambe Cross Bay Challenge on 12th August and then the Cumbrain HM on 7th October and training has been going really well so don't want to stop if I can help it.

Any advice would be really appreciated.

28/06/2012 at 15:41

Right approach?  RICE.

Runners' approach?  Up to you.

28/06/2012 at 19:21
Rest! Although you don't need us to tell you that!
30/06/2012 at 22:05

Sounds like you've built up too fast. 25-30miles a week is too little total mileage to be knocking out a 16 in one go.

I bet you do the 16 too fast as well...

What kind of paces do you do all your runs at? And why have you been loading your big run so much, with not much total mileage to play with?

01/07/2012 at 15:56

Thanks for all comments. I did nothing until today when went out for a 6 mile 'health check'. Shins seemed to be okay but left heel still some soreness, particularly going down a steep bit, but didn't really affect my running.

Today ran about 8 min miles after first mile which ran about 8:30. I tend to run at about 8 min 20 secs when go out for a slow run, anything slower seems uncomfortable.

I've been running since September last year but was just running 2 or 3 times a week and 10 - 15 miles. Was running a 2 mile with middle mile at just above 6 mins, 5 miles at around 7 mins and a 5 or 8 miles at around 8 to 8 min 20 secs miles.

Now running an easy 5 (8 to 8:20), a tempo 5 (8:30 down to 7 mins), a faster long run (8 to 10 miles) - at about 7:45 and then a long slow run which I had been increasing from 10 to 11.5 to 13.35 to 15 (but got lost so became 16!) at about 8 to 8:20 - only doing this every other week.

So what should I be doing? 

01/07/2012 at 16:00

PS Target time is sub 1:35 in half marathon in October - Cross Bay is just a bit of fun I will use as a training run.

01/07/2012 at 19:36

Need to know some achieved race times really Skinny. Just so noone quotes paces that are out of sync with your current fitness...

Did you mean that you do a 2mile run with the "middle mile" at just above 6min miles? There is no middle mile in a 2miler!

First thought before you fill in the details above, is the classic "too fast" in training cliche.

A 1:35 half is 7:15 per mile pace. Therefore, your easy pace should be about 8:30-9+

The McMillan race calculator gives some ideas on zones to aim for...but is usually a bit too fast on the easy zone..so i've edited it a bit from there

But let's hear your current race paces first to be sure

 

Edited: 01/07/2012 at 19:39
01/07/2012 at 20:18

Hi Stevie G - you seem remarkably helpful!! So I'll give you as many details as I can.

I'm 44, 6ft tall and only weigh about 10.5 stone. (never been any heavier - just don't seem to put on any weight - most people would say I was lucky!).

 When I was 13 I did the Cumbrian Run (it was in April then) in 1hr 35 - since then I have done it a further 6 times but never beaten this time (but never trained for it as hard (consistently) as this year). It is the 30th Cumbrian Run this year and my years are starting to clock up so my whole training plan since last September has been building up to this run to beat 1hr 35 before I get too old (I know this is not that demanding a time but as each year passes I must be sneaking past my best).

So race times - before this latest effort to beat the time I dedicated about 18 months towards beating the time about 5 years ago - I ran a 4.5 mile race in 31 mins 7secs on about 6 months training then ran the GNR in 1:48 in a banana suit the year it was really hot and a couple of people sadly died - this drained me a bit and couldn't really train effectively for next four key weeks  before the Cumbrian Run and ran 1:36 (aaarggghhh!!). I then changed jobs and the running stopped until this latest 12 months.

The only race I have done since starting again was Brampton to Carlisle 10 mile in early November after about 2 months of 10 to 15 miles a week - ran 75:31 which was okay as a stepping stone.

In training I have raced against myself over 5.3 miles and run 6:50/mile (about 4 weeks ago) and have done same over 8 miles and run 7:15/mile (this was week before I ran the offending 16 miles)

I still have 12 weeks proper training before taper before Cumbrian Run so quite happy to start again with something sensible.

What would you suggest? I've seen you have written lots of threads on training and it all sounds really good stuff - would be interested in following your advice.

Thanks!

 

01/07/2012 at 21:04

Sorry - never answered the middle mile of two question - often during week I am very short of time - rather than do no run I did a half mile warm up, flog myself for a mile, then half mile slow down - not really very sensible but have dropped this from my schedule now I am up to 25 - 30 miles; it was really to force some pace back into my old legs which has worked.

01/07/2012 at 22:19

Mr skinny, you're a stone ligher than me, and i'm pretty slim, at only 1 inch taller, so no wonder about your profile name

That explains about the middle mile too!

As you're looking to hit 7.15 pace for 13.1miles, and you're already capable of hitting that exact pace for an 8miler in training (presumably accurately measured on a GPS), I'd say you're well on track to your goal.

I would never be able to handle 8miles in a row at my half marathon goal pace!

 What exertion level did that feel like? Was it medium hard, or were you wrecked afterwards?

Your long runs definitely sound too fast. A long run in the 8:30- 9+ mixer would suit, as it's about time on your feet, not pace.

Then I'd suggest some target pace reps, but that's a bit difficult, as you're already doing 8miles at the intended pace, so giving you a couple of miles at that pace wouldn't be beneficial...and blindly picking you quicker paces wouldn't necessarily help either.

therefore, i'll wait until i see your answers to the questions in this post, and we'll go again

 

Edited: 01/07/2012 at 22:25
01/07/2012 at 22:43

SG - when I joined this site had just watched some programme on telly about Men who have Fat Women Fetishes, and their Feeders and people pay to watch them be fed - my friend (also skinny) suggested we should set up a site for Fat Women who Fancy Skinny Men and we could let them pay to watch us refuse to eat a cucumber sandwich!

Exertion after 8 miles at 7.15 - hard but not wrecked

Exertion after 5.3 miles at 6.50 - wrecked

Exertion after 16 miles at 8.20 - not that bad - but obviously I have suffered afterwards so need to tone this down - the main risk to me beating 1:35 now seems to be injury or illness.

My training has gone better than I thought - I don't really want to unnecessarily risk getting injured but I think I could get close to 1:30 with a good 12 weeks of the right training - would that help you come up with some targeted reps pace?

My training to date is obviously too hard and I need to keep up the training regularity but lose some of the intensity - I think I've done the hard work getting the pace and miles in my legs - now I need to make sure I keep my legs in tact but keep the pace and miles in them.

Look forward to your reply and thanks.

PS 7.15 hits about 1:35 - I 'need' to be sub 1:35 so need to be down around 7.10. 

01/07/2012 at 23:09

Long term it would be great to help you build a schedule encompassing 3 key sessions of your week, a Long slow run at easy pace, a tempo pace run incorporating Marathon Pace, and then targetted reps ranging from half marathon pace down to quicker.

However, for that kind of set up, you'd need to have a much higher mileage which would take longer to build.

For your aim of sub 1hr 35, i don't think you need too much work, just a case of getting the longer runs slower, and not working too hard, and risking injury in the quality session.

If that 5.3mile run left you wrecked, that's probably quite a close substitute to a 5mile race. Presuming that it didn't wreck you due to the terrain, as I know you have some hilly regions up your way!

Therefore, if your 5mile race pace is 6:50, perhaps your 10k zone is 6:52.

From that you'd get a Half Marathon pace (HMP) of around 7:10 and a marathon pace (MP) of 7.30. Your easy pace would be in the 8:30-9 mixer.

Getting that long run slower, to a comfortable 8:30+ pace for 13miles is key. Get the stamina built without mashing yourself.

Then i'd like to see you do EITHER one of the 2 sessions in Week 1

  • 10miler, with 3miles easy pace, 6miles MP, and 1mile cool down

or

  • 10mile run, with 3miles easy, 3x2miles at HMP (7.10) with 2mins between reps) 1mile cool down

So 1 long run, 1 of the above sessions as quality, and then 2 x 4-6milers at easy pace.

I think that would be a decent bet for week 1, and if you fancy that, report back and see how you're getting on.

I'd expect you to find the quality session medium hard, but if you found it too easy, we'd tweak things for week 2

Let me know how that sounds

 

02/07/2012 at 09:26

Thanks - sounds easy but I need to step back a bit to be sure my body is in okay shape so I'll go for it and report back next Sunday/Monday.

Cheers

02/07/2012 at 12:31

It may well be too easy, but it can always ramp up in future weeks. If you start off too hard, and it does sound you've been a bit too hard recently, injury and disillusionment await!

Forgot to say...obviously it depends on where you can fit in the sessions, but if you're only doing the 4 sessions i suggest, is probably sensible to keep the long run and the hard session as far apart as poss..maybe sunday - wed , and then slot the 2 other runs in in between

Edited: 02/07/2012 at 12:32
08/07/2012 at 18:56

how's the first week been Skinny Love?

09/07/2012 at 09:11

Pretty good and feels about right.

Monday - 5.3 miles in 7:57/mile not sure if your Easy meant easy for me or the Long Slow Run Easy so went for an Easy for Me.

Wednesday - 3 miles,6 miles, 1 mile - total 10 miles. First 3 in 8:15, next 6 in 7:27 and last mile in 8:40. Found it quite hard to find the 7:30 pace after the slow first 3 miles but range for the miles was between 7:25 and 7:32 so I presume that was okay. I was comfortable at that but also could feel my legs a little towards the end so presume that is Medium Hard.

Friday 4.4 miles in 44mins - got home late about 8 pm and so tried to do run and dog walk combined - dog wouldn't go fast enough!! Probably okay for training run though as just supposed to be Easy run anyway.

Sunday 13 miles in 1 hr 53 mins so 8:42 mile and this was a steady pace for whole run.

Quite excited about what my plan is going to be for this week!!

09/07/2012 at 11:55

Skinny, that's a good week to start things off, exactly what we're looking for. You've laid a good structure down, and pretty much hit the paces necessary. If you can run the Friday session without the dog this week that'll be ideal!

So, that's week 1 done. The target race is at the end of week 14.  Is it a hilly half out of interest?

I'd propose the following for week 2

Monday        5.5mile easy   (8min + pace)

Wednesday  Half Marathon pace rep session
10mile total, including 3miles warm up, then 3 x 2miles at HMP with 2mins recovery in between. 1 mile warm down.

When i do a similar session, I tend to have a quick break after the 3mile warm up, to get geared up. Then it's a straight 2miles HMP, 2mile recovery session, done 3 times.

This should feel like a good workout, but shouldn't leave you shattered after.  7.10 pace for the HMP, so 14.20 a repeat.

Friday  4-5miles  easy pace   (8min + pace)

Sunday 13miles easy pace   (anywhere between 8.30-9 is fine)

The Wednesday session is the key, and as well as reporting back your splits, let me know the exertion you felt, and how you recover the next couple of days.

Then we get a good guide of what tweaks to make

Let me know how this week's plan strikes you.

 * The 8+ min miling for the shorter easy paces, can be back in the 8.30+ domain as well. Key is to keep it easy, as you have Tuesday to run hard, and sunday to run long.

Edited: 09/07/2012 at 11:58
09/07/2012 at 12:31

Sounds good - I had thought myself that your alternate plan for week one would probably do me for week 2.

One quick question - for the two minute (not miles  - see above) recovery sessions do I actually stop and rest or am I jogging or?? Never done this kind of training session before so will be interested to see how it goes.

Will report back next Sunday night/Monday morning.

I've also learnt that stretching exercises every day on my calves are important to protect all the surrounding muscles and am trying to do this before and after the runs but also on the rest days - wandering round work on my heels and getting some funny looks!

Finally I posted on a separate thread that in w/c 17/09 (third last week of training before race) I am having to go to Denver for a business meeting. Had a number of concerns but most responses I got suggested no problems with running out there and that main issue might be a bit of jet lag when I got back that messes with race week minus two training.

Nevertheless race week minus three training is unlikely to be as high mileage level wise as I originally expected so your plan is probably going to taper (mileage level wise) from race week minus four whether that was your intention or not - just thought you should know.

Thanks for all your help, advice and general interest so far.

Cheers, Skinny

 

09/07/2012 at 12:41

Sorry - missed your hilly question - nothing horrible - I would describe it as undulating, most of the hills are fairly short and moderate inclines - its not fell running! - however I try and make sure at least some of my runs are over similar terrain because its hilly enough that I need to be able to run up hills without it being a new experience for my legs!

09/07/2012 at 14:16

 good spot....2mins recovery not 2miles, we want to make the session challenging after all!   You're ok to stop after the 2miles for the recovery, i reckon you'll need the breather

Just thought i'd ask about the course, as getting you sub 1hr 35 fitness shouldn't be tough at all, but if it's a course like Everest we'd have problems!

As long as everything's going to plan, a taper would kick in the week of the half, not 3 weeks before. However, most of the training will be in the bank by your trip, so should be fine.

Stretching wise, i'd get into the habit of covering off all these bases after every run...there's loads, so maybe mix and match each time...

  • achilles (dips and raises on the stairs)
  • calves  (2 or 3 variations of the standing calf stretch, one with bent legs, others without)
  • groin (sat on floor, feet together)
  • hamstring  (crossed legs, reaching with hands down shin)
  • back  (lie on floor, tuck both legs into stomach, variation is one leg on floor, other leg tucked into stomach)
  • quad (standing upright, hold ankle and hold behind your backside (if that makes sense!))
  • glute (you might need to check these on google as harder to explain)

so that should cover off the injury prevention side of things...

 

Edited: 09/07/2012 at 14:17
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