P + D training for VLM 2013

Also-ran wrote (see)

Mxb - I recall that Rotterdam is a fast and flat course - sounds like a good one. Are there any tweaks or changes you are making to your plan for Rotterdam that differs much from P&D70 , or from the loose version you used for Amsterdam. Interested to know what did or didn't worked well for you.

I'm not sure yet, to be honest. I need to find the time to sit down with my Garmin data and work out what went right and wrong with training. My initial impressions, without having done that analysis, are that

(a) I kept my HR a little too low during long runs - by which I mean, at the lower end of the endurance range (around 73% MHR);

(b) I was not rigorous enough about running at my marathon pace in parts of my long runs, and

(c) I don't think I did enough running at LT pace.

Things went well the first time round though so hopefully starting from a higher base will enable me to knock 5 minutes off my time by just following the same plan again. 

Blimey MXB - Don't be too hard on yourself! Make sure you arn't trying to fix a problem which is actually a strength. No-one can run their best possible marathon after just 18wks of training. The best marathons come on the back of previous marathons, it is the consistency of running miles over time which allows you to run further, faster and more efficiently. It is always hard to know which variables to change, but for all the variables you are coinsidering changing above, it is possible to come back with a counter argument for NOT making those changes: eg a) Your aerobic base will not be as developed b) You will be tired for the next training session c) Injury risk.

Wow mxb thats fantastic, definatly a natural athlete. Can I ask have you ever played sport at any level IE football for a pro club when younger or such? Agree with Keir consistency is the key.

Well did an easy 7miles (in 58mins) last in quite cool singapore evening, then tonight i did 8miles with 10x100 (in1hr 12mins) and it was hot and humid out there and it was hard work from the off.

Is everyone running tonight?

MXB - wow that's great.  It has taken me 5 years to get to sub 50 for 10K.

Been and done my run already.  5 miles at 5:30.

Ship - I can't say that it is easy running at that time of day.  I do prefer a longer lie and running at night, but I find that life gets in the way and the running doesn't happen so I force myself (most of the time) to get up and do it.

Kease7 - that sounds pretty uncomfortable.  I remember it was very hot and sticky when I visited Singapore briefly and that was without running.

Hey Fiona J, Yes running is hard out here. Finally after 2 years I learnt you need to drink at 500ml of water/sports drink for every hour run you do. I've also become a treadmill fan reluctantly as sometimes needs must.

I have been known to do 13miles on them out here, you just need some good music on your mp3

Keir wrote (see)

Blimey MXB - Don't be too hard on yourself! Make sure you arn't trying to fix a problem which is actually a strength. No-one can run their best possible marathon after just 18wks of training. The best marathons come on the back of previous marathons, it is the consistency of running miles over time which allows you to run further, faster and more efficiently. It is always hard to know which variables to change, but for all the variables you are coinsidering changing above, it is possible to come back with a counter argument for NOT making those changes: eg a) Your aerobic base will not be as developed b) You will be tired for the next training session c) Injury risk.

Thanks - very good points!

One thing which has (I think) helped already is buying a Garmin 610, which I can programme to beep and vibrate horribly at me if my heart rate drops below a certain level. I did a threshold session last night and kept an average HR of 168 compared to the 166 it's been on previous occasions.

kease7 wrote (see)

Wow mxb thats fantastic, definatly a natural athlete. Can I ask have you ever played sport at any level IE football for a pro club when younger or such? Agree with Keir consistency is the key.

Thanks - no, no sport at any level.

bliddy hell, mxb - that's what I call some debut! Wonder what you are capable of going forward! It's taken me 5 years to go sub 3:30 eventually.

alehouse wrote (see)

That's good going, mxb16. Can I hazard two guesses:
1. You are relatively young
2. You are relatively light?

Sadly I am no longer either, but when I was considerably younger and lighter it was all so much easier! Both, but particularly age, do make a big difference, not least in terms of recovery.

same here, ale . I'm too fat and too old to ever go sub-3

Kease: humidity is always a killer. I ran this morning . And I should have donned my wetsuit, it was bucketing . I think I'm about to develop webbed feet what with all the rain ...

Teknik wrote (see)

Chick - I just did Frankfurt (28/10)...I thought I'd be able to get back to pre-race paces for 70% and 75%, but my HR is just shit and won't get down - I feel like I'm where I was when I started Hadd - is this normal? 

Not sure if it's normal, Tek but it's deffo the same for me and my marathon was October 7 .

It might be worth finding and listening to Steve Way (aka Marigold)'s interview on episode 13 of Marathon talk MXB. It sounds like you, like him, have a bit of natural talent.

Tek/ Chick. It might just be your legs arn't 100% after the marathons and that manifesting itself in the heart having to do a bit more work for a given speed? 

Chick - hope we're back on track soon!

Gaz - thanks, that should be it.  Just clicked onto Keir's suggestion re Steve Way...his beats per mile are like 800!!! I was so proud about getting below 1400...

Dylan - Myself and Al were just dicussing a few pages back that 1:23-1:24 region is a good sub 3 hour indicator that we are both aiming for in Silverstone and I agree my half marathon will tell me the shape I'm in. I'm aiming for 1:28 but time will tell if it happens.

MXB- I noticed we both ran in the Regents Park 10k Series this year. You ran a sub-39 and just 4 and a half months later you achieved a really fast marathon time - that's a seriously good improvement. Every time someone that tells me that my aims are unrealistic I will use your success as motivation!. Were you using every training session to build up your aerobic base or did you also throw in a few tempo runs or intervals with your club?

Ship-star wrote (see)

MXB- I noticed we both ran in the Regents Park 10k Series this year. You ran a sub-39 and just 4 and a half months later you achieved a really fast marathon time - that's a seriously good improvement. Every time someone that tells me that my aims are unrealistic I will use your success as motivation!. How many miles were you running per week?

Yeah, although my 10k times are not as good as my marathon time, which I think is slightly unusual, so I wouldn't draw too many conclusions. Even now I haven't gone below 36 mins. I cannibalized bits of P&D55-70 and 70-85, averaging around 70 to 75 miles a week. I ran to and from work which helped. Have you joined a running club?

Keir - thanks for the tip, I'd be interested to hear Steve's thoughts because I've read about his background online.

MXB: can I ask a third question?! Do you have a flexibility or strength training regime that helps injury-proof you?

Cheers!

Forgive me MXB, I am still waiting for the book to arrive, do those plans include a lot of speed work or tempo runs alongside the long runs and easy miles? I have recently joined a club yes. You must be really unsusceptible to injury to go from a non-runner to 70-75 miles! I don't think my knees would enjoy that much running.

alehouse wrote (see)

MXB: can I ask a third question?! Do you have a flexibility or strength training regime that helps injury-proof you?

Cheers!

Afraid not. I don't even stretch before or after runs (I should probably start doing that though).

Ship-star wrote (see)

Forgive me MXB, I am still waiting for the book to arrive, do those plans include a lot of speed work or tempo runs alongside the long runs and easy miles? I have recently joined a club yes. You must be really unsusceptible to injury to go from a non-runner to 70-75 miles! I don't think my knees would enjoy that much running.

Yes - there are a few tempo runs at LT pace to do, and a fair few VO2 sessions (where your heart rate is 95-98% max). Personally I skipped almost all the VO2 sessions on the basis that (a) they're bloody painful (I once managed to keep my heart rate at 90% for 20 mins and it was so unbearable I just never wanted to do it again) and (b) I'm not sure how useful they are - you can only run at VO2 max for around 8-12 mins, so I figured (in an amateur, lazy way which is probably wrong) that tempo runs would be a more efficient use of my time and energy. So far as I could tell, pure endurance and LT pace are the biggest factors by far in marathon performance, so I just focused on those with recovery runs thrown in to make up the mileage.

mxb16 wrote (see)

Afraid not. I don't even stretch before or after runs (I should probably start doing that though).

MXB: yes, leave no stone unturned!

I agree with your "lazy thinking" Mxb, I don't think those VO2 sessions are anywhere near as important for marathon running as the LT runs. I think they are there to try and put a "fine edge" on things whereas the long runs and LTs are the bread and butter work outs.

GazOC wrote (see)

I agree with your "lazy thinking" Mxb, I don't think those VO2 sessions are anywhere near as important for marathon running as the LT runs. I think they are there to try and put a "fine edge" on things whereas the long runs and LTs are the bread and butter work outs.

Yes - they might be of some benefit, but given (a) time constraints and (b) the fact that I don't really want or need to run the last 5km in sub 15 minutes, I'd go for an LT run instead. Might be different if I were national standard though.

Theres also c) going tear arsing around town at that sort of pace in liable to get me either injured or run over.