P + D training for VLM 2013

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07/11/2012 at 21:03
I think the PD vo2 max runs are probably geared towards elites who may be involved at the sharp end of a marathon and need a fast finish to win or get placed. However running at vo2 max now and again does make the LT runs feel slower/easier. I guess if you do the odd park run during the schedule these will be close to vo2 max.
08/11/2012 at 04:14

Wow MXB you are my new hero, along with Steve Way

08/11/2012 at 06:41
Morning everyone - this is turning into a busy thread, with some great little snippets of information & things to think about.

I finished off the week last night with a 9.5 mile run as part of my commute home, with 4.5 miles at 07:20/mile, which according to P&D and my HRM, is fairly close to my marathon pace. Heart rate for the 4.5 miles was between 160-165, and that is around 82-83% of my WHRR.

Being completely honest, the aim last night was to do 5 miles at HMP (which should be around 06:50/mile), but I was carrying a rucksack with laptop, etc, in it, and my legs just didn't want to go that fast.

10 easy miles this morning, again as part of commute to work..... Happy running everyone!

08/11/2012 at 08:01

YP - please take this in the spirit of debate...but P&D give 73% to 84% of WHR as MP, which I've always taken as 73% to 77% for H1, drifting up to 84% by the end.

Drift in my last mara (which I did in a -1min neg split) was 18% (including the first few miles of easy HR until I hit normal operating HR for the first half).

If you're at 83% WHR after 4 miles, where do you think you'll be at mile 23? 

Also 30 secs between mara and HM pace is several years away for me (only just broke 60 seconds).

please don't be offended...


08/11/2012 at 08:36

Not offended at all.....

When you say your drift was 18%, do you mean you went from 66% to 84%, or do you mean you started at an average of say 170bpm, and drifted up by 18% of 170 to around 184bpm?

Also, how big is the gap between your HM race pace and mara race pace?

I wouldn't dream of trying to race a marathon at 07:20, but I know I can hold that pace at around 160-165bpm for 13-14 miles (without a rucksack on my back), so I'm experimenting with using it as my MP for training purposes.

08/11/2012 at 08:52

I did six miles (easy) yesterday evening to test out my new HRM. I kept my HR below 150bpm for the run and it took me almost exactly 48minutes or 8:00 pace.

I think I'm on the right lines but I keep reading conflucting information about where certain training zones start and how to measure HR Max. So any heart rate related advice for base building will be hugely appreciated.

Edited: 08/11/2012 at 08:52
08/11/2012 at 08:52


I use maxHR so mile 1 was 72%, mile 26 was 90%, but let me convert that to WHRR

mile    max     WHRR

0-5      74       66

6-10    77       70

11-15  80       74

16-20  84       79

21-25  87       83

26       90       87

I admit I ran a conservative race, but I've bonked 6 times previously...

HM/MP gap is now 54 secs...

08/11/2012 at 09:41

I never really understood heart rate drift. My heart rate tends to decrease over the course of a long run even as my pace remains constant.

For example, over a 34km run approx 1 month before my marathon:

15:04 - 4:13/km, HR of 157

1:13:56 - 3:59/km, HR of 156

1:46:12 - 4:04/km, HR of 153

2:11:11 - 4:10/km, HR of 152

2:24:03 - 4:11/km, HR of 151

08/11/2012 at 09:55

You're wierd MXB! 

What was is like during the marathon?

08/11/2012 at 10:02

No idea, I didn't wear my HRM, which I regret now.

08/11/2012 at 10:08

you need a new HRM, mxb  

YP: good running there. A backpack, especially a heavy one, will always elevate your HR anyway, so without it HR @ 7:20 pace will be a lot lower.  

08/11/2012 at 10:13

This is what 'normal' people HR splits look like MXB! (My pb from Abingdon 2009)

Time     Distance   Split time Split pace Avg. HR     Max. HR
0:33:13    5.00      33:13        6:39         155 (79%) 165 (85%)
1:05:53   10.00     32:40        6:32         163 (84%) 167 (86%)
1:38:20   15.00     32:26        6:29         161 (82%) 165 (85%)
2:10:55   20.00     32:35        6:31          161 (83%) 165 (84%)
2:44:27   25.00     33:32        6:43         166 (85%) 171 (88%)
2:54:23   26.45      9:55         6:51         171 (88%) 175 (90%)

08/11/2012 at 10:13
Can I join you all? I am definitely going to do the 55 mile P&D for either Manchester or VLM. Will wait and see if I get a club place for VLM first, will start training mid Dec and will just plod along until then doing steady hilly trail runs I think and keep to around 30-40 miles a week. I have booked Trail Marathon Wales in for June too so VLM would be preferable as would give me an extra week to recover.

Agree that I will add more 22 milers in as not enough for me in the 55 mile Plan.
08/11/2012 at 10:27

Hello everyone,

Id like to join this thread too!

Glad i found this, im target is sub 3 at VLM and i was thinking of trying to follow the P&D 55-70 schedule.

My marathon pb was 3.16 at Liverpool just over a year ago but after a year of triathlon training i feel in better shape than then. I think i need to up the mileage significantly as ive always maxed out at about 45 miles per week.

I feel like i can manage quite high volume but i struggle a bit with speedwork in training so i think ill need to tread carefully. Thinking maybe just build up the mileage till Jan then include the quicker sessions.

Some really informative posts on here and some impressive times as well!

08/11/2012 at 11:13

Morning all

Welcome Mark and HeOw.

There has been a wealth of useful information on here I must say. Finally my copy of the book has turned up so now digesting the info.

I've come to the conclusion that now is not the time to try to establish my WHR.  I'm only into my second week post marathon and my RHR is 68/min which may be true, but since others are still noting a higher rate, may reflect my post marathon state.  I think I'll wait another couple of weeks and then sort it out.  No hurry, I'll just keep running easy in the meantime.

Tek - based on my marathon PB and a recent HM the gap between my 2 paces is 1:10. Although this may not reflect my current marathon pace as the most recent marathon was a bit slower due to the terrain.

08/11/2012 at 11:24

Ship-star - sorry for the cross-post.  Here's a good start on HR training / testing


Ashman the link to the actual Hadd doc is broken, but it's now on


Welcome HeOw and mark

Keir - that tells me I need to push my LT up by upping the 80-83% Hadd ceiling over the next few months.

Fiona : Just done some bored trawling through my Fetch buddy list on HM v MP. Totally unscientific but...

(1) 2h33 mara MP = HM +19 secs

(2) 2h49 ... +24 secs

(3) 2h56 mara ...+30 secs

(4) 2h58 ... +40 secs

(5) 3h07... +47 secs

(6) 3h35...+59 secs






08/11/2012 at 12:26

welcome, mark & heow.

I have the Hadd thingie as a word doc, so if anyone wants it, PM me your e-mail and I can send it over.

Have also got a geeky excel thingie for P&D  that Minni from the sub 3:30 thread sent me. Saves you from checking the book every single day - simply choose the P&D version you want to do, enter date of your race and it populates the spreadsheet with all key workouts. There's also space for you to input your actual mileage/pace/time vs. the scheduled. And if you decide to use the "trainer" option it'll even calculate how much mileage you've done in each pair

08/11/2012 at 12:36
Fiona J wrote (see)

I've come to the conclusion that now is not the time to try to establish my WHR.  I'm only into my second week post marathon and my RHR is 68/min which may be true, but since others are still noting a higher rate, may reflect my post marathon state.  I think I'll wait another couple of weeks and then sort it out.  No hurry, I'll just keep running easy in the meantime.

I am not sure I have got my MHR right; I got it at 175 and I did this during a 3 mile speed session where i ran as fast as I could for the 3 miles. The reason I am not convinced it is right is because I hear of younger, fitter, more experienced runners on here with a MHR of over 190. So, I was going to try again to get my MHR. I have my first half coming up in a few days so dont want to overdo things before that. So, based on what Fiona has said about her RHR I was wondering the best time I should try and establish my MHR ? Will the half actually help me if my RHR is higher for a period of time after my half ? Cheers

08/11/2012 at 12:53

Welcome Mark and Heow

Chickadee - you have mail

Tek - that's a very interesting piece of analysis. Maybe I need to start thinking my real Marathon race pace is currently more like 07:40-07:50....?

08/11/2012 at 13:58

YP it's not a very big sample size...

Buddy (3) is a Hadd freak on 70mpw;  

Buddy (4) doesn't train by HR and used the P&D 18/85 (and is in his mid fifties - there is hope for me, yet!);

Buddy (5) was doing 75 miles a week.

Buddy (6) was doing 40 mpw

...if you put the (slow) miles in, the gap narrows...

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