P + D training for VLM 2013

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08/11/2012 at 14:04

Agree Tek, for me the more slow miles the closer MP and HMP become (in my limited expience).

08/11/2012 at 15:08

Hi Carter, I think your max heart rate may be higher than you measured as that doesn't sound like enoguh stress in your original test.  The following link gives you details of how to do a max heart rate test.  it also recommends not doing the test for a period after a race until your body has recovered




08/11/2012 at 15:09

Tek - I suppose that is what you would expect really.

Carter - a HM shouldn't have as big an effect on your HR as a marathon, but probably best to wait a bit before trying to sort it out.

08/11/2012 at 15:35

Fiona...mmm, also consider though the "cumulative training volume" 

Number of marathons

(1) 41 (his first was 4h17!!!)

(2) 9

(3) 12

(4) 7

(5) 3

I've left (6) out as it spoils things - he's done 37 but the PB was early on, before he started trying to get to 100 maras by running one every sodding week-end...

08/11/2012 at 15:53

Teknik: Great link about HADD, much appreciated

08/11/2012 at 15:55

YP, carter, ashman & mace: you all got mail

08/11/2012 at 16:25

Thanks Teknik and Chickadeee much appreciated !!!

08/11/2012 at 18:55

Gaz what base mileage are you up to now?

Carter, I agree with Stutyr - a 3m race is too long to max out - you probably only hit 95%.  Max HR is genetic and won't go "up" with training/conditions - although your resting can be pushed down by training.

09/11/2012 at 11:02

Tek - interesting stats, quite a good correlation there .... looks to be around HM x 2 plus 10% in the 3-4 hr range, slightly better ( as you'd expect ) for the speedy gonzalez dudes.

Chick' - received, thankyou very much... not had a look at it yet but will get stuck in at the weekend

After an epic fail last week where after a 15.5M LSR on Sunday i realised my weekly total was 49M , i'm delighted to say i've clocked 37M ( 5-10-7-5-10 ) so far this week, rest tomorrow then bar a disaster i should hit my first 50 for the week some time Sunday morning. 

Right, that's me off to check there are no hurricanes forecast in my area for Sunday

Have good weekends folks, happy running

Edited: 09/11/2012 at 11:04
09/11/2012 at 14:37

Tek: I've edged up to 61 miles last week and will probably hit just over 65 this week. That'll do me now, I'll keep that mileage and try and move from running 1 80% effort a week to 2 sometime around Xmas.

How about you? You going to try and get back to the P&D mileage you were hitting over the summer but in a Hadd program?

09/11/2012 at 15:42

Gaz: I'm going to build back up slowly, hopefully hitting the 60's by December, all Hadd (with one 80%), then P&D 12/70 from mid January...I'm adding a few longer LSRs.

Still messing with the plan - I want to race my local half in March, which points to doing the P&D tempo's, but I also want to keep one 80%+ Hadd run too...it all looks a bit much when you throw in the MP finishes to LRs, the tune-up races etc...

Mace - good running fella!

Edited: 09/11/2012 at 15:43
09/11/2012 at 18:13

All 3 would be too much for me mate. I''m going to make a decision in the new year whether to swap the LT runs in P&D for a longer  80% run. I won't be able to do both and a MP paced long run at the weekend.

09/11/2012 at 18:43

yep I'm going to have to limit it to 2 out a combination of 80% / LT / tune-up races / MP finish on LSR in any one week...

09/11/2012 at 19:02

You could do your 80% one week and then a "traditonal" tempo of 90% the next week.

Or 80% and interveral training in same week

Edited: 09/11/2012 at 19:04
09/11/2012 at 19:24

Hi spen - my tempo's are going to be Sunday club races, and I can't see myself "holding back" every other week to make it an 80% job....

09/11/2012 at 21:18

Hi Everyone,

I've not even received my copy of the P&D book yet but thought I'd introduce myself and say how much I've already enjoyed this thread.

I'm sure I'll have lots of questions for you all as I start training for London.

09/11/2012 at 22:18

I still am following this thread with interest but keep finding more questions I need answering  Right... someone said to do the first part of long runs @ 70 % then go up to 75% I did 13 miles yesterday, I did 10 miles @70% then the last 3 @75%   in 1 hour 57 .which of course average out at 9 mim mile (DOH) was that enough at 75 %  for a 13 miler ? and is it possible to work out my expected marathon pace from this for the mara paced runs OR if not what HR do I run the mara paced runs at ?? I havent used an hrm to train for a marathon with. Think that covers it.....for now

confused 50 year old granny of 3

Edited: 09/11/2012 at 22:52
10/11/2012 at 09:07


Let me have a go - but bear in mind they may well be opposing views.

P&D tell you to run your LR at MP +20% accelerating to MP+10% for the last 5 miles (p16).

For me that usually coincides with 70%max and 75%max HR - and I don't get much drift at those low HRs (so the increase to 75% is due to increased pace, not drifting HR over time). But you may well be different to me, so....

Problem - you don't know what your MP is going to be. So we're in to rules of thumb


(1) Female Mara time average  = HM x 2.25 (male is HM x 2.29). There was a Moraghan thread on this - correlation was very high on the RW test data, and was true across all ages groups...ratios didn't get much better until you got to the sub-3 guys

(2) 5 x 10k time?

(3) I use Hadd, who makes you do 10 mile runs at 80% to 83% max HR - once you find a pace that you can maintain in that band, with no upward drift, for 10 miles, then that's your MP according to Hadd. (Over time Hadd has you nudge up the intensity but I find my pace increases at that HR over the course of a campaign anyway...)

10/11/2012 at 09:22

To add a bit more to Tek's detailed answer...

Daniels Running formula (which P&D is based upon) p39 states the following HR bands (%HR max)

Easy - 65 - 80%

Marathon - 80 - 90%

Tempo 88 - 92%

10k zone 92.5 - 97%

So if you know your HR max, you should be able to have a rough idea on your average HR in a marathon (although HRs generally rise throughout the event)

Personally - I usually train to HR apart from key sessions when I train to pace. In the marathon I run to pace not HR. But it is interesting to see the HR data post race. When trying to estimate MP this is a constantly changing figure. Just because you may have a target pace - say 9m/m it doesn't mean that you are fit enough to race at this pace now! Therefore your training MP needs to be adjusted upwards as you get fitter.

10/11/2012 at 13:14

Wow a few days not checking page and its lots of interesting reading, welcome heow & mark1981. Mxb you continue to amaze me, you may have to start your own blog

Hey Chickadee, can you send me the excel sheet too please?

Another good 40mile week for me here in Singapore, the storms have been twice a day when I've been running so its been fairly cool here and nice running this week. I hope it continues. 


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