P + D training for VLM 2013

Hi everyone, Wow you dont check this site for a week and about 3 pages get added.

Had a bit of niggle last week with my right calf so 3 forced rest days but still clocked 33miles, so will take that as a recovery week . Hoping to build upto 44/45miles this week to continue my base phase and slowly increase things over the coming weeks to the mid 50's.

Hi, has anyone ever found that they're just unable to maintain the prescribed pace in a training run? e.g. the second week of the P&D 18wk 55mpw plan has a 13 mile run with 8miles at marathon pace. Given that i'll have been running all of my runs in the 3 months prior to starting this program at a pace much slower than marathon pace (i.e. following a HADD-style base building) i'm not convinced I'll be able to do 8miles of a 13 mile run at mara pace. It's one thing having a pre-requisite weekly mileage before starting the plan, but if all your miles are slow isn't there a risk you're just not fit enough to maintain a faster pace?

Marathon Pace should be reasonably comfortable for 8 miles. The next 3 months get you up to the point of being able to hold it for 26.2. For base training I run easy most of the time, and include some tempo runs (faster than MP). I don't really use heart rate or pace during this period - just run. If I set a realistic MP, then week2 P&D should be OK.

Maybe relax the MP a bit, until later on in the training when you have got the measure of yourself, and perhaps tested yourself in a half.

sound advice also-ran. I've arbitrarily picked a training MP based on my current 5k PB and a translation of this into paces for longer distances based on the mcmillan calculator, but i guess different people can "translate" paces between distances with varying degress of success. I'll try with the MP suggested by mcmillan and adjust accordingly if i'm not able to hit it. I'll also give myself a break and try not to worry about it

AgentGinger if you're using Hadd then run it with a 83%max ceiling rather than a pre-prescribed pace.  It will be slower than the McMillan calculator, probably, but don't worry, you'll improve over the months to come.

Remember, Hadd said the ability to hold a level pace for 10 miles at 80%-83% with no drift is an indicator of what MP should be...

Like A-R says, don't thrash yourself in the early weeks....

AgentGinger

For my last abortive marathon attempt I did what you're doing, and used a combination of McMillan and Jack Daniels' Vdot formula to convert my 19:30 5k time into a suggested MP of around 7:10-7:20/mile. This was way too aggressive for me, and I struggled (failed) to complete several of the runs with large blocks of MP in.

This time round I'm planning to use a recent half-marathon time to give me a rough guide,and then in the first couple of weeks of my marathon training I'll see how that pace feels and adjust accordingly.... I'm also hoping that 6 months of fairly consistent 40ish miles a week will mean my overall endurance is better, and I can maintain a decent pace for longer...

10.5 miles tonight in 93 mins..max hr 75% average 70% one of those ...wow what a great run..runs , you know what I mean. rounds the week off to 52 miles

I managed 14 miles yesterday.  Having finally managed to establish max HR when in Berlin (had to use the treadmill while there so thought I might as well) I can finally use HR to pace the run.  So managed to keep WHR below 70% for pretty much the whole run. It only went higher twice but still less than 75%.  The second time was 1 mile from home when the rain came on rather heavier and clearly I was subconsciously trying to get back faster.  40 miles for the week.

I'm using P&D 18 weeks up to 55 miles for the first time - training for the Paris marathon which is 2 weeks before VLM (sorry, I can't resist a thread which is so relevant, for once!)...currently just started week 2 as I've built in a couple of extra weeks for various reasons.  Like Teknik mentioned, I'm setting my pace using a recent HM time which was in October.  Hoping to pick the pace up later on but I'm starting out on the back of an injury so I don't want to be on the bench within a month!

Nice miles Fiona and Mark my longest to date is about 14 so we are ready to jump into the scheduled 15m long run that first week although I may sneak one in this weekend 

Fiona we are "allowed" to go up to 75% so good effort on keeping it low.

Hi YM  

Hi everyone - I started running in May (run/walking actually) and have been losing weight and running further ever since. My weekly mileage for the last seven weeks has been between 30 and 38 miles with a 50 mile week in there (due to a strava challenge). My half marathon time (i've only done 1) is 1:53:00 and my 10k time (i've done 2) is 51:38. 

I have just started reading P&D and am considering following the up to 55 mile plan even though this is my first marathon. The alternative is to continue following the plan that got me here. I obviously started that plan way too early but it has been great in giving me a structure plan i can follow.

Not sure whether to stick with what I have (4 days a week - 5 mile easy, 8-10 mid week long, 5 mile tempo, 16-20 mile long slow, plus one optional day which i have not been doing) or start on P&D. I have a couple of weeks to decide by my reckoning. 

I have never done any speed work as such - only the tempo run i do each week.

Morning - what a lovely morning for running and I'm stuck inside.

Night Nurse - I know....... I thought I would have trouble keeping my heart down but obviously not.

Khanivore - sorry I don't really have anything to offer by way of advice.  I think P&D advises that you need to be doing at least 35 miles/week to be able to follow the plan so you should be ok.  I guess it depends on what your goals are.  You might find it a bit tough going if you've only been doing that sort of mileage for a few weeks.  Therefore it may be better to stick with what you are currently doing, but equally you might not have any problems with the mileage. I think you just need to be careful that you are not upping the miles too quickly as that is when you risk injury.

Hi khanivore - wow, for a beginner you are certainly clocking up the miles! Just be careful that you don't do too much too soon and get injured. The P&D 'up to 55 miles per week' schedule is great for people who are regularly running 30-35 miles per week in training and are used to the variations i.e. hills, speed, tempo etc. and possibly have done a couple of marathons under 4 hours. I followed it because I wanted to get under 3.30 at the time, having got close several times, and it worked for me. Just be wary that it is fairly intensive, especially with the longer mid-week run, but it does get results. Good luck with the training and your first marathon!

Khanivore you'll be fine. The 18/55 starts with 33m, with a 12m longest run, and you're comfortably over that already.[p.152 gives 25 mpw as the lowest weekly mileage to consider starting a plan]

Speedwork doesn't kick in until 10 weeks are gone, so done worry, and 5 days instead of 4 isn't a big jump...it's just one more "easy" run.

Hop aboard, it's easier in a group

Khanivore...What Teknik says...go for it

+1 for Tekniks advice but to add if time and life gets in the way and you have weeks when 4 runs are only possible miss out the filler miles not a quality session. Good luck!

Is anyone doing preparatory races as part of their training?  For my previous marathon, I did a half-marathon about six weeks before (setting my PB ) and was talking to another runner at the start who also had a 20mile race in their preparation for the same marathon.  The marathon plan I was following included racing a HM in its schedule.

This half-marathon is seven weeks before VLM next year, and in the sub-55mile plan this would be the same day as a 20m long run.  I don't really want to replace this 20 miler, but I had positive results from a tune-up race in my previous marathon.

Has anyone successfully integrated some warm-up events into their P&D plan, as I'm a little surprised that there aren't any in there.?

I will almost certainly run a couple of HMs after Christmas and perhaps a 20 mile race as well.  Might just need to add a few miles at the end of the HMs if I am disciplined enough. I know somebody who was ultra training and added about 6 miles to the start when he ran London.

stutyr, I'm in the same boat as you: that is, HM (Reading) 7 weeks before the full (MK in my case). I've been wondering whether to shift that 20 miler a week later or a week earlier. I'm gravitating toward doing it earlier, and shifting the whole plan a week (or even two) earlier to make room for a bit of taper and recovery. But I really am no expert.

As for warm-up events, P&D do have them toward the end but they are short, between 8K and 15K as I recall. I guess we just have to adapt a bit. I think the odd distance range reflects the way things are in the US, where they seem to have alot of intermediate distance events to choose from : 5m, 6m, 7m etc. whereas we tend to have mostly the standard 5K, 10K, HM (with the odd 10 miler).