P + D training for VLM 2013

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30/12/2012 at 18:14
I will still build the miles up to mid to high 80's for endurance and keep adding to the MP miles after that I cut back on the miles back down into the low 70 but add more speed starting March. It's work the last couple of times for me so with a slight change here and there that's my plan.
30/12/2012 at 18:44

My session was 17 miles today..thats where the !st edition differs, no marathon pace during LSRs for a couple more weeks although I have been doing some 7-9.5
milers with my club. And I have got my first tempo session this week I believe you all did your a couple weeks ago ?
well done ziggy NP AL SR for that marathon pace injection.
Ten nice run you ran it spot on finishing feeling strong rather than hanging !!

17.65 miles for me in 2 hours 47 keeping eye on HR and managing to keep it under 75% average was 72% ave pace an even 9.30s..a good few hills round here so pleased with that, especially as I have just finished a run of 3 nights shifts and only had 4 hours kip this morning..4 nights off now 

30/12/2012 at 19:01
No Pain wrote (see)
Just over 17 miles for me today done in the wind and rain hard work after yesterday's race but managed 4 miles at MP in it as well
Ten well done on your 14 mile run, enjoy your rest day tomorrow.
Surrey Runner well done on the 16 mile run, I think we all suffer from to much eating this time of year
Ziggy what are you times for 10k and half marathon? Well done on your 13 mile run.
Al run as you know it's the sum of all the workouts in the end that will give you your best time in the marathon some days in training are harder than others, but I still think its to early to pinpoint what your time will be.

Hi NP,

I've not really ran many races so all of my PB's should be treated with suspicion. But here they are for what they are worth.

Marathon - 3hr 59min (only ran one, in May and my training was poor to say the least)

Half - 1hr 39min (that was in September, but since then I've done a 1hr 34min in training and I reckon I'll go sub 1hr 30min in my next race in March)

10k - 41:02 (I've only ever ran one 10k)

5k - 19:21 (I've recently ran an unofficial 5k in 18:44)

Basically, I've only been running for just over a year and I'm at that exciting stage that most new runners go through where I'm making rapid improvements and feel that I can PB anytime I race. (I'm enjoying it because I know it won't last)

But the downside of that is I'm unsure of how quick I should be aiming to go and I'm also worried that my lack of experience (and over enthusiasm) means I might be prone to injury.

I've never followed a proper training program until now so P&D represents a major improvement in the quantity and quality of my training. (that also makes me worry about potential injuries)

30/12/2012 at 19:02

Thanks No Pain / Night Nurse.  You're no slouches yourselves 

I think this is the first time I've run 14 miles and not felt like crashing out afterwards.

A question popped into my head during the run...  at what point do you guys start using gels during your LSR?  Today, for example, although I carried a gel, I never felt I needed it and so I didn't use it.  I also drank very little water - about 125ml perhaps.  Is this OK, or should I start practicing fuelling early in the program even if I don't feel like I need it?

Do you follow a training strategy for fuelling?


30/12/2012 at 19:04

Great running again everyone!  

NoPain - well done on race, 850m is a lot!  

NightNurse, again, good running. Especially after 4 hours sleep.  Shows you how good your stamina is.  

AlRuns - 88% is a bit too high for realistic MRP if you were to run it now BUT it may come down over next couple months, so don't give up on it yet.  Just maybe slow the MRP miles down a bit for now, to middle of the HR range that P&D advise? 

4.5 miles recovery done for me.  Brings my total for the week to 57.5 (plan says 58) so chuffed with that, especially being Christmas week with 3 small children! My legs feel fine, I think I have found that following this plan has made me slow right down hence, the majority of the miles are easy and not showing on my legs as much as a 40 mile week would but with faster miles in it, if you know what I mean.  Now, I imagine, all these easy miles are what gives us huge endurance and stamina? I just feel so strong at the moment, like tonight, I should have been knackered but, if I wanted to, I reckon I could have put a good 5k tempo in.  Obviously I didn't!  But just shows...  Day off tomorrow, be glad of it.  Then NY day will be 14 miler and then on Wed club session (which helpfully, is around 8.5 miles) so, I have swapped the sessions around.  

Edited: 30/12/2012 at 19:05
30/12/2012 at 19:22

Ten I took one gel today at 11 miles, I used to take 2/3 on 15 plus  milers but am trying to cut down and not rely on them as much, I am sure there are few extra lbs in lard that I can utilise  Decide what gels/fuel you are going to use and do your long runs using them to make sure you can stomach them..I use the SIS gels I find lucozade a bit sickly so stick to the SIS gels and water.

HeOw endurance has always been my strongest point, its that faster stuff that I struggle with, I could have easily carried on today, the pace was HR was steady with no drift. Looking after 3 small children is far more tiring running a marathon so respect to you for getting all those miles done..

And yes I know EXACTLY what you mean its all the easy miles that do it..66 miles for me and I finished today's run feeling fresh as a daisy !!

Edited: 30/12/2012 at 19:23
30/12/2012 at 19:23
Ziggy well done on your First marathon under 4 hours and also the half marathons you have done since, going on your last half marathon of 1:34 if you double this and add 15 it will give you a time of 3:23 if you round this down to 3:20 that would give you what you should aim for as a marathon pace which is 7:38 per mile. I think this would be a realistic starting point and if come Feb/March you drop your half PB you could look at it again. taking over 30 mins of your first Marathon PB is very do able

Ten today I did 17 and had less than 250ml of water and 1 gel however on at least one of my long runs I will practice what I will do on race day which for me is a sip of water every 3 miles and a gel at 6,12,16,20,24 miles. If you don't practice on the day you can get it very wrong
30/12/2012 at 19:34

Thanks NN/NP.

The reason for my question was that I think I read somewhere that it was better to go without gels on most training runs (except for a practice session or two to make sure you can tolerate the stuff) to train the body to utilize fat instead of carbs.  Or something like that, LOL.  As usual, I can't remember where I saw it.  I might have heard it on a podcast (marathontalk or talkultra).  Or I might have dreamt it.

I noticed on here that a few people have been posting "no fuel" when they detail their long runs.  So I suspected that it may be a conscious decision not to take gels.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't drink very much on long runs.  Though, on a treadmill I tend to drink loads

Edited: 30/12/2012 at 19:35
30/12/2012 at 19:40
I don't see any real point in not using gels during long runs as your going to burn more than you will use plus why get to the end of a long run and feel totally spent better to feel you have more to give
The good thing about P&D is with the mid week medium long run your endurance is going to be better than before.
30/12/2012 at 20:29

Ten no you didnt dream it...learning to burn fat properly stops us hitting the wall...you burn fat by doing the long runs SLOWLY do them too fast and you use glycogen and that runs out quickly and you  crash !!

Do whatever helps, if gels help physically /psychologically , my main reason for cutting down a bit is I tend to feel a bit sick towards the end of a marathon and put it down to 6 geks sloshing around...maybe be its just the fact that I have run a marathon thats making me feel like that,

I drank about 500mls of water today but its chilly so I didint feel the need to drink loads.

31/12/2012 at 10:14

Morning all

Well yesterday was supposed to be 13 miles with 8 at marathon pace ......I managed to complete 13 miles and for 8 miles my HR was in the marathon pace range, but I can't say my pace was anywhere near. It was a foul day and incredibly windy (take your breath away stuff) all the way home uphill.  It was torture.  There was no way I could have gone any faster and I was totally knackered by the time I got home.

A question - this is the first time I've used HR for training and not pace.  Although my HR for HM pace was spot on, I was surprised to find that my pace for the general aerobic runs was only 10-15 secs slower than I want to run the marathon (aiming for sub 4 with a PB 4:09), does this mean I've gone wrong somewhere in my HR calculations?  Also do you all use pace for LSR? I ask as the whole of the WHR range is a lot faster than the MP-20%/10% pace range for me and I'm not sure which I should use. The WHR is much nearer to my marathon pace and I'm worried I am doing too much fast running as I'm not breathing completely easy.

31/12/2012 at 10:38
How many are planning a half as part of their build up? I am doing Wokingham in February. Last year I did Bramley 20 and then Wokingham the week after but not planning to race a 20 this year.
31/12/2012 at 10:48

I'm booked into the Silverstone Half and the Oakley 20.  I'm planning to race the Half, and treat the 20 as a catered training run.  I'm also going to run in an organised 18m training run.  After discussion on here, I'll probably do a couple of parkruns as tune-up races.

31/12/2012 at 11:11

Silverstone HM for me too and might also do a couple of parkruns. I'll run the HM all out, not sure about how to treat the parkruns

31/12/2012 at 11:12
I hope someone can help me....

I'm in London at the moment for new year so I don't have the book with me.

I was wondering what the workouts are for the next few days. I'm following the 55-70 18 week plan.

SR- I'm doing a half in January (York brass monkey) then maybe one more in March.

Happy New Year everyone!
Edited: 31/12/2012 at 11:15
31/12/2012 at 11:20

Hey Mark, here's your schedule for the next week (week 3 55 - 70)

Mon - Rest / x-train

Tues - Medium-long run 11M

Wed - Medium-long run 13M

Thurs - Recovery 5M

Fri - Lactate run 9M w/ 4M @ LT pace

Sat - Recovery 5M

Sun - Medium-long tun 15M

Happy New Year and Happy Running!

Edited: 31/12/2012 at 11:22
31/12/2012 at 11:27

Fiona - how did you find out your Max heart rate?  Treat any formula to calculate the max with extreme scepticism (e.g. 220 - age).  There is a big margin for error with those formulae.  I recommend reading "Heart Monitor Training for the Compleat Idiot" by John L Parker Junior.

I tend to check my heart rate most often during recovery runs, to make sure I'm keeping well within the recovery range (useful over varying terrain).  For faster runs, I prefer to stick to my pace plan, or run by perception - then I examine my heart rate readings afterwards.

31/12/2012 at 11:34

NN/NP - thanks again.  I think I'll continue with carrying gel, but only use it if I need to - until I start to practice race-day strategy.

I started using Zipvit gels this year, because they have a bigger carb content than the others and I actually liked the blackcurrent ones.  I used to use lucozade ones, but have only really taken them under duress.  SIS gels are okay, but they are sooooo sticky and the carb content is lower, so it's a lot to carry.

31/12/2012 at 12:29

Hi! I've been lurking on this thread for a little while (and am doing the 18-week up to 70 miles schedule in the first edition as training for the VLM) so thought it would be nicer to say hello.

Also, I haven't done a marathon before and was wondering if people with more experience could advise me: a friend has just asked me if I want to do the Hastings half with her on 24 March, and I do, but is four weeks before the marathon too late to do a half? I think I would struggle to make myself not race it properly.

31/12/2012 at 12:51

Hi all,

Nice running going on - had a recurrence of an old psoas injury so taking it easy for a couple of days.

Gels - I dont use them except for practice run 2 weeks out from Marathon or if i am doing a lsr or mlr very early on in the day pre breakfast.

NN - As ten says - make sure you are basing your HR calcs on something meaningful - the highest HR you have got when racing a 5k or shorter distance will be a good indicator.  If you put your calcs up we can comment on them. Realistically unless you are coming off a recent campaign rather than base building when running to HR it wont equate to target MP just yet, but will creep towards it as you move through the programme.

I have a nice flat Half mid Feb at Wrexham and am (somewhat  optomistically) looking to PB it.

Lit - I wouldnt personally race a HM 4 weeks out but there are several people who do this routinely - but they tend to be very seasoned and experienced Marathon runners and have endurance to spare.

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