P + D training for VLM 2013

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02/01/2013 at 15:24

P&D are on the whole very good at explaining everything, but one thing I don't get is: why is LSR and MLR run pace higher (MP+10/20%) than General aerobic (MP+15/25%)? In the plans (as I read it), gen aerobics of 8-10 miles tend to get replaced by MLRs of 11-14 miles, so why increase distance AND pace?

That said, general aerobic of 9 miles done today. I'm in the first week of the sub 55 18 week plan, aiming for MK on May 6th. 

02/01/2013 at 15:46

I tend to run LSR/MLR based on HR  rather than pace for one thing its quite hilly round here and keeping an even pace is impossible...sometimes if I am it tells me to keep to 9.30s whereas today  I was running 9.15s finishing at 8.45s for the same effort.

I did spend a  few months base training keeping to 70%  and saw pace pick up significantly at low HR 

Edited: 02/01/2013 at 15:47
02/01/2013 at 15:47
Hello all. Writing this from Costa teguise in lanzarote. Have done pretty well sticking to the schedule, but shuffled a few sessions round so had new year's day off which is just as well as I was sick as a dog after getting a bit carried away with the free wine and cocktails supplied by the hotel. Some really nice running routes over here, seen quite a few beautiful sunrises. Garmin run out of power this morning so it's guess work from now on. Back in UK late Saturday. Have to go and work on my suntan now.
02/01/2013 at 15:56

Lunchtime Runner I wondered about that too, although having completed the first two and a bit weeks I am suprised that my legs feel so good, and put this down to the slower running, is it because we are working on setting a solid base before things get more challenging? It is not until week 12 that the GA runs start to be replaced so is it a 6 week apaptation phase before it steps up? Working on my paces there is a change of 45 secs a mile between GA and MLRs which as a slower runner doesn't seem too bad (but GA is quite a bit slower than I would have been running anyway).


02/01/2013 at 16:04

I am doing the Helsby Half on 20th Jan and would like to use the race to give me an idea of what time to realistically aim for in the Marathon. What would be best to do in the week leading up to it, just follow the plan as normal or cut back on any of the runs to make sure I am fresh?

I am following the sub 55 plan so would normally would have a 9 mile run with 5 at Tempo Pace on the Tuesday and a 10 mile GA run on the Thursday with two 5 mile recovery runs that week too (Weds and Sat). The race will replace the long run that week. Any advice welcome 

02/01/2013 at 16:38

Pottermiss - I can't help with the HM, I was wondering a similar thing myself.

With regards to pace/HRM everyone on here is going on about all the slower running, but if I use HRM I seem to be doing more at a faster pace than I would normally.  The GA runs are not much slower (approx 10-15 secs) than MP which just doesn't seem right.

02/01/2013 at 16:49

No Pain, HeOw and Night Nurse Thanks for your words of advice. I am feeling much better now and have been easing back in, including 10.5 miles last Sunday and 8 miles with strides yesterday. Doing the 8 miles yesterday (with a hangover) it was hard to believe that I could barely manage 3 just a week ago! I agree with Night Nurse about the strides. I think it is just about turning the legs over a bit faster than usual and that the specific pace is not so important. 

02/01/2013 at 16:50

Fiona I would see that as your target MP is faster than you think ....I would go with the HR if you have a good solid base behind you.

02/01/2013 at 17:10

Lunchtime as you increase the miles and pace you are also getting fitter from the training

15 West welcome back hope you are enjoying the rain and wind now like the rest of us lol

Pottermiss I would just stick to the plan don't taper and if you have to change the week about to ensure you do a recovery run the day before that would be fine.

NN when I joined Fetch 4 years ago somene was already No Pain




02/01/2013 at 17:18
Pottermiss - I'm doing a half marathon on the same date and I'm going to do a mini taper for the race.
I'm prepared to miss a few sessions the week before and after the HM.

You could jump back into the schedule the week after the race and still have 12 weeks of training which is plenty of time I think, especially when you'll already have a good base.

I did the MLR today 13 miles in 1.39, feeling pretty good at the moment.
The bad news is I've put a couple of pounds on over Xmas, although I was expecting a lot worse when I got on the scales this morning!

Edit - just read no pains post, this is the other alternative. It depends on what you want to achieve from the half marathon race.
I'm hoping to run a pb and find out where I'm at with my fitness so I'm taking the race quite seriously.
Edited: 02/01/2013 at 17:24
02/01/2013 at 17:22

Pottermiss I wouldnt bother tapering either...unless a massive half marathon pb is on the cards and more important than the marathon....

15 west, you wont be so smug this time next week 


Edited: 02/01/2013 at 18:16
02/01/2013 at 17:46

Pottermiss, No Pain, thanks for the answers to my pacing question. But I still find it a bit odd. After all, the Long runs, Tempo and Recovery runs etc. all get longer but not faster. On the other hand, maybe it is just their way of easing us into the MLRs - I just wish they had a bit more of an explanation on this point. But what the heck, it's not a big deal.

I too have a HM, in my case 7 weeks before the full Mara. Need to figure out where to shuffle that 20 miler to. The week before?

02/01/2013 at 18:27

LR its not wise to increase mileage and pace , you will be getting enough speedy sessions from the tempo and VO2 max sessions

And yes I would do the 20 the week before

Edited: 02/01/2013 at 18:28
02/01/2013 at 18:58
JF50 wrote (see)

Tenjiso I always worry about muscle pulls if I was to try to sprint at the speed I could manage in my 20s, so have always used effort to assess it by, so a controlled acceleration to sprint and then ease down after about 70/80 yards.  Actually I can't sprint longer than that anyway

Bad news that full speed means max speed...  however, I think we can all agree that us oldies have special dispensation to take it a bit easier 

Edited: 02/01/2013 at 18:58
02/01/2013 at 22:19
NN - I did wonder about that. If you put my HM pace into the calculators it says I should be capable of a 3:48 marathon. So maybe a sub 4 should be feasible.
02/01/2013 at 23:27

NN, that's my point. P&D seem to be advising just that: increasing pace AND distance as you replace "General aerobic" with "Medium Long Runs".

02/01/2013 at 23:47

Oh really ?  I will have a re read, although to be honest I wouldn't get too hung up on the whole pace thing this early as you get stronger then faster pace becomes easier anyway and  alot depends on how hilly it is where you live , head wind etc, that's why I prefer to run by HR, starting at low end finishing towards the upper end.

Fiona HR is the best guide, I have been told if your HR is low for what you feel is a fast pace you are obviously fitter and more capable than you thought...good stuff...

03/01/2013 at 06:58
I don't get too hung up about paces at moment, if leg's feel tired after a previous key session I take it easy. For example yesterday I ran a 13mi but could definitely still feel the 16 with 8@MP from Monday so took it easy.
Pottermiss, I am also in Helsby half on 20th. Whether you taper or not depends what you want to get from it. If you really want to go for it and go for a good time, grab a PB etc and see where you are for your marathon goal, then do a mini taper. If you just want to treat as a tough session then don't. Not sure what I'm going to do yet.
5mi easy for me this morning.
03/01/2013 at 11:14

After 5m recovery yesterday, I ran 10m GA today.  I ran the course a bit faster today than last week (avg. 10:24 vs 10:41), and my heart rate was still lower than in the previous run.  That's the kind of measurable progress I like.

Pottermiss - regarding the mini-taper.....pg 28/29 of P&D vol2 has suggestions in the section about tune-up races.  Taper for no more than 6 days, and expect at least 5 days to recover from a race of 15k to 25k (see also Table 1.4).

NN - It certainly makes sense to train to HR over varying terrain.  What do you do about race day itself?  Assuming you have been training almost exclusively with the HRM, do you also wear it during the race?

Having read P&D (and others) mention that we should try to run over similar terrain to our planned race, this got me thinking about a mistake I think I made last year.  I ran my long runs over hilly trails, even though my marathon (Milton Keynes) was primarily flat road. My reasoning was that if I could maintain pace over tougher terrain, then surely it would make it easier in the race itself.  Only it wasn't easier! In fact, I felt my quads tightening after only eight miles!

Now this may have been due to the weather being cold and exceptionally rainy/windy (I wore shorts ), but I wonder if it was due to me being unprepared for a flat course on road?

I will run hills during this training campaign in order to build leg strength (probably during midweek runs), but I'm making an effort to pick flatter long run routes to mimic (as best as possible) the marathon.  Does anybody have any views on this?

Edited: 03/01/2013 at 11:16
03/01/2013 at 11:25

Forgot to mention - I wore my new Garmin 310xt today for the first time.  I'm already liking the vibration alerts.  It was much more stable with the HRM readings than my 305 has been of late.

Setting up the ANT+ stick was a pain.  It's not particularly difficult, but the instructions supplied by Garmin were pants.  It wasn't helped when I accidentally locked myself out of my garmin account without realising that my mails were directed to an old email account I no longer use.  Such fun 

However, having set it up properly it works like a charm.  Very quickly uploaded to garmin connect.

I really must sit down and put in some decent heart rate ranges, and work out how to set the interval training sessions.  I never did use those functions on my 305 

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