P + D training for VLM 2013

NN, what HM are you doing?  I was thinking of Wrexham in Feb BUT no point wasting the money and time involved, as I am doing Helsby half in 2 weeks, might as well hang off until March.   I am dropping back to 9 miles today, not going to do 18, because my training was originally for Brighton, but I am now doing Manchester, I will peak too soon, so will start at week 16 and repeat couple of weeks I have already done.  No harm doing more base building, better than peaking too early!

Mark, hope you are running! 

HeOw. A fairly local half Bideford north Devon, a sensible decision to cut back if you have changed your mind, its all too easy to get carried away when things are going well and as you say peak too soon, So what date is Manchester ? is it flat ? well supported etc?

Mark hope you got yourself out of bed, if I can, anybody can believe me, I really dont do  mornings, I am practically nocturnal after 20 years of night shifts, I was helped by the fact today that I was meeting my brother to keep him company , he was scheduled 11 so a nice easy 11 in about 1hour 45 then picked up the pace for 4 on my own at  9 s to finish my 15 in 2.22 I  have to slow him down he cant get his head around running slower than marathon pace, which for him is about 9.30s so even 10s is plenty quick enough.

61 miles for the week !!

15 mile MLR done this morning.  Is easier when I do the runs in the right order.

Just been nosing on Fetch anyone here log their training ? found Pottermiss and NP cant believe I am on page 1 in the mileage league !!

NN think you dropped off page one but todays run got me on to it lol always finish on page 5 or 6 by the end of the year as for the doubles i introduced them a few years ago to up the miles it just works for me doing 2 on tuesday to a max of 14 miles for both and the same on thursday with a medium long run on the Wednesday, there are some weeks where I will only do 1 run on the thursday if I'm knackered.

Mark well done on the 17miles and 58 for the week.

18 miles done this mornig in near perfect conditions but a bit of mist... Yesterdays run brought my week to a close on 67.5 miles

NN your brother sounds about my pace, but I did my long run yesterday ay 10.04 average so I may be going a bit too quick too.

Good running everyone, I keep forgeting that others are doing the higher mileage plans so I see the long runs and panic that I'm not doing enough!  Mark good to see you to got out there in the end. 

My recovery 4 today ended up a recovery 3, first and last miles on road, the middle one across a boggy field so a more walk/ leap style of running  but legs feel good now. Garmin froze so couldn't use it, but found a fix on another thread so it's now up and running again, so to speak.

I did 12 instead of 9, nice and easy 9:30m/m. I do feel like I am just jogging around and getting a tad worried!  Promise me, all these extra easy miles will make me faster...! 9 just didn't feel worth it!  Legs feel fine, takes mileage to 56 for week, will stick to around 52-56 until after Helsby Half then will start on the long runs.

NN, wow, 20 years of night shifts?! That is brutal.   

NoPain, thanks, will read that.  

Mark, well done! Agree, weather lovely.  Watch it be freak weather for our races. 

Morning all, some great running over the weekend, everybody seems to be on track.

The year hand on my body clock ticked over to 59 yesterday, celebrated with a 14 miler.  So misty out there but enjoyed the run and kept paces pretty much on track throughout, perhaps a bit too fast on the last couple before home.  40 mile week and felt fine.

The only nagging doubt I have about the programme is that for previous marathons I have run a couple of the longer runs at MP, and this seems to be discouraged by P&D, I guess it is about confidence in the programme as much as in yourself.

Does anybody else run a couple of the 20 milers at their MP?

No Pain, thats an interesting comparison as Hal Higdon seems to be the other highly regarded training plan.

Its made me realise how much more comprehensive the P&D plan is, as it mentions a total mileage of 1100 miles for the 55 to 70 plan.  As I'm doing the sub 55 plan, I did a quick calculation of the mileage in 2013 up to and including the marathon and it comes out at just over 700 miles.  When I followed a RW plan a couple of years ago it was just over 500 miles for the same period .  

Hello all - post holiday blues here. Got back about 2am yesterday morning, and was out for a knackered 15 miles at 8am. It actually was a beautiful morning.

I say stick to the plan everyone. 20 miles at MP probably good training wise, but risky injury wise. HeOw - plan at moment is all about endurance, you've probably got a pretty good base already - but once more speedier stuff gets introduced and the weekly mileage gets longer your legs will probably not feel so fine!

Thanks for the link to that comparison.  It made me smile when it said that the P&D threshold runs were quite scary.....   I couldn't agree more, as I was just about to head out on the LT session this morning.  This is the training week that I have been dreading, while at the same time looking forward to see if I could do it....

So, this mornings run was 9m with the middle 5m at threshold pace.  My target for the tempo was 8:16 (15k pace.... my HM pace is 8:46), and my heart rate range target was 158-174bpm.  My splits were:

10:21/10:24/8:18/8:18/8:16/8:17/8:24/10:01/9:54

I'm particularly pleased that I hit pace in the middle, because that mile includes a pretty steep hill.  I was caught napping a bit in the final tempo mile and left myself too much to do going up a long steady incline, but I'm not unhappy with the effort.  My heart rate range peaked at 167bpm going up the hill (I slowed to 9:30 pace and made it up on the descent).

Comparing against my previous LT session, my heart rate was consistently 5bpm less throughout the threshold miles.

I'm still dreading the forthcoming 16m (including 10m @ MP ), but today's session has boosted my confidence.

Yes, I found that re article re Higdon v P&D interesting reading BUT I wasn't surprised.  JF50, for Chester training, I actually ran my long runs too fast and ran a 20.5 miler at 8:35m/m! I raced them, left my marathon on the road.  Guess what, come the day of the race, I burned out mile 21-22 and dropped down to 9ish minute miles for final few miles.  I didn't have enough time on my feet. I learned big time from that.  Novice error, a lot of people (myself included!), especially ones who aren't running mega fast marathons (3:54 for me at Chester so pretty average time), run at race pace because, 9m/m is pretty much easyish pace to them. However, there was still nearly an hour for me to run and my legs just struggled to do it.  I am thinking, I will be making my long runs nearly 3:30-3:40 in time, the distance might go over 22 miles slightly but I believe, me knowing I can run that long, is mentally a bonus.  At the moment, my medium length runs are 40-60 secs slower than my "intended race pace".  I really have had to discpline myself to slow, put the ego in a box.  Hopefully, I am doing the right thing!  I will probably run my long runs (16 mile plus) slower at the start then push a bit nearer to 9m/m for final 5-6 miles but still only adding MRP in when told to by P&D. 

Welcome back 15!  Yep, I agree, will be screaming at me in few weeks, good that they feel ok so far though, probably means I can cope with the extra miles.  I was thinking, if I ran 180 miles in December, bit less in November then to do over 200 miles in January is ok anyway.  It is only upping mileage by a bit more than 10%.

Ten - great work!  Hope you are pleased with yourself!  I love the fact you are going for this plan, will be very interesting to see well you do.  I think, you will be surprised and notice a big change to your perceived marathon race pace by the end.  

NP, 15W and HeOw I am sure you are right, and actually more important so are P&D but I guess it is all a confidence thing with trying  something new. 

I ran FLM in 2008 at 3.33 and yes struggled with the last couple of miles, but till then had kept very constant at 8mm, the last couple of miles were  probably 9.10ish if I remember.  During my training (I tweaked a Sam Murphy plan a bit) I ran 5 x 20 milers and a 22 miler and certainly ran some of them at MP.  What I wouldn't have done though is run for 3hrs30 mins, probably just over 3hrs max for the 22 miler.

Perhaps my MP could have been lower if I had trained differently?

Thanks HeOw.  It's interesting to read everyone's thoughts on runs greater than 20m and/or above three hours.

Ten - I feel your pain!  I was feeling good after the 15m long run yesterday, even managed to do a negative split.  Then I looked at this week's schedule and saw the 9 miler with 5m LT (tomorrow morning for me) and then the big MP effort for the end of the week.  I think the recovery week will be well deserved next week!  

JF50, I don't know if it helps but to discourage myself from running the long ones too fast I tend to try and concentrate on the need for time on my feet rather than the distance.  Therefore there's a benefit to running slower as you're teaching your body to run for a longer duration.  Its also nice to shift focus from average pace to elapsed time on the occassional run, as I relax into the run rather than monitoring the Garmin.