P + D training for VLM 2013

Hi everyone. Long time lurker, new poster (sounds like an AA meeting).

Anyway I am also following the P and D route (18/70) plan for my first marathon attempt at London this year. I'm a fairly new runner having taken it up about 2 years ago in my mid 30's. But so far so far so good, with a PB of 1.22 half marathon at the tail end of last year. However, this half time has given me illusions of shooting for a sub 3 marathon at London, which may well be a bit optimistic for a first time attempt. But if you don't try you never know and all that. So far I have been sticking with the P and D plan fairly well. Got to be honest, I'm feeling a bit knackered, but paces in training runs have on the whole been encouraging.

Just starting to panic now a bit as the 20+ milers are just in sight and having never marathon trained before the longest I have gone is 18, so this will be a whole new experience for me. Endurance is going to be my main problem.

Also wondering if there are any others targeting 3 hours out there and what your training paces are looking like? I have a feeling that I'm still pushing a bit too hard for long runs and Med Long runs and need to ease off a bit (LR and MLRS are averaging about 7.15 pace at the mo with LT at 6.00 and recovery at 8.00). What kind of paces are other people running at aiming for this sort of time?

Thanks for listening (and sorry for hijacking the thread). Cheers. Chris.  

Hi Chris, welcome to the thread.  I'm not the most experienced marathoner here (as VLM will be my second) but a 3hr marathon of a 1:22 HM sounds possible. 

Are you looking at HR %age when you're achieving your paces? This will be the best indicator of whether your running too fast for a given level of intensity.  Your paces are about 1 min per mile faster than mine - and I'm aiming for a 3:15 which is roughly 30 secs per mile slower than you, so yours do appear to be a bit too fast.

Hi Chris,

sorry, I'm too slow but NP is one of those fast guys .

Have you heard about the McMillan calculator? It figures out training and goal paces for you, based on recent race results. Try this McMillan. If I enter your HM time of 1:22 McMillan reckons your long run pace to be 6:51-8:02, recovery 7:49-8:31 and tempo 5:57-6:13. So you are doing pretty well. Perhaps do your 1st 20 miler at the slow end of the spectrum. If you still feel good at 15 miles, you could up the pace a little. But for the first one you may want to err on the side of caution. In any case, the old adage of training slow to race fast holds. Slow miles build the aerobic engine and that's what you need for those final 6 miles on race day.

if you're feeling tired, as in generally fatigued, rather than specific tired muscles, then it could be you're not resting enough or not eating enough.

you can get through a 20 mile run with no fuelling, but you'll pay for it in longer recovery time, and more fatigue. you can get through your weekly runs with poor quality sleep, but likewise you'll pay for it eventually. if you're running higher weekly mileage than you normally would, aim to get a regular solid night's sleep throughout the week. The odd broken sleep, or late night won't kill you, but regularly skimping on sleep is not compatible with marathon training.

i've heard that many newer runners run their long runs too fast. aim for about 10-20% slower than your marathon goal pace. for a 3hour marathon pace of 6:52, your long runs should be somewhere between 7:30 and 8:15 ish. ballpark.

long runs serve multiple purposes, including conditioning your legs to take a pounding for the hours you'll be out on the road, so time on feet is important. but they also help condition your body to utilise fat more effectively as a fuel source. this only works if you don't run them so fast that your body is forced to use stored glycogen instead. so, slow down a little on the long runs. and eat some quality carbs and a bit of protein immediately after your hard runs. nutrition is not that complicated, despite the thousands of seemingly contradictory opinions on it. each a load of carbs to replenish your glycogen immediately after your long runs, and otherwise eat a healthy balanced diet. 3-5 meals a day, small and often is generally good, but whatever works for you.

hope you're enjoying the running. and good luck with your first marathon.

Thanks for the reply.

I don't tend to bother with HR% when training and just go by feel for a number of reasons. Firstly I hate the feel of a HR monitor on my chest and secondly I don't feel like my personal HR data has corresponded with intensity of training for me when I have tried it previously. I have a fairly low RHR of about 50 and a fairly large Max (for my age) of just under 200. However, going for a very easy jog, or recovery run at 8.00 min pace often puts my HR in the 155 - 160 range - which would equate to 77-80% of max. However, if I go at marathon pace, say 6.40 min pace then my HR only rises slightly to say 170 (or 85%). So there doesnt seem to be much difference between my HR for a jog and my HR for a steady / MP run. Which is why I don't bother with HR training any more.

The training paces I have been running so far haven't been killing me off and I have been trying to make sure all the long runs and MR start eaysish at around 7.30 pace before progressing to 7.00 and then sub 7.00 at the end. I will be consciously trying to air on the conservative side of the pacing though as the mileage starts to ramp up, as I have a feeling that too many too fast are going to be a recipe for fatigue / injury.

How did you cope with the latter stages of your first marathon Stutyr? Did your endurance from the plan see you through? - this is the bit that is going to be new territory and so still worries me!

Thanks also Chickadee and Agent - all very good advice. Its those last 6 miles that are going to be the main problem I think for me. 18 mile runs have been fine so far and have even been able to kick at the end of them. But, I am still daunted by the 20 mile plus, so like you say I'll definately air on the side of caution for the first one and see how I get on. And Agent, as a new runner I now love Carbs! - oh and chocolate - lots of chocolate! 

I use my HR to slow me down - as I tend to run faster than I should if I'm not careful - see the US site's link below for a more eloquent description of the problem!

http://www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/avoid-black-hole

For my first marathon I made the classic mistake of going off way too fast, as it felt easy - I should have been running at 7:20 min/mile for my target but went past the 10 mile marker in 70 mins flat and even had delusions of breaking 3 hours as I still felt good.  At mile 15 I started to feel it, but by mile 18 I'd hit the wall.  I struggled on and eventually finished just outside my "acceptable" time of 3:30 - but by that point I'd realised the major achievement was completing the 26 miles rather than beating a personal target time.  

So, I'm not the best person to advise on sensible marathon running!  However, I would say that you need to have a target time for your training, but mentally prepare yourself for taking longer and remember your primary focus is to complete the marathon (and as its your first, any time will be a PB).  

Its also one of the reasons I picked the P&D plan as I think the combination of longer mid-week runs and the Marathon-paced sessions should better prepare me for the last 6 to 8 miles  

Anecdotally I think they say for every 10 seconds too fast in the first miles you will pay in minutes in the last miles

Im still yet to make a judgement on what I think my Marathon Target Pace will be to be honest. Probably going to wait until later into the programme and after having done a few more long runs with miles at MP. The last one was a 18 miler with 10 at MP - which averaged around 6.35 -6.40. But I can't imagine sustaining that for the full 26.2 miles!!

On anther note (and in advance of tonights 10 mile General Aerobic run) what kind of paces have people been running their GA runs at (relative to MP). I have just generally been running them by how I feel on the night (and how hard the days before have been), but I've noticed that these have been speeding up of late (maybe a sign of better endurance and training?). Last one last week was around 6.45 average, but think tonight I'll aim more towards 7.15 tonight as its recovery week and next week is looking brutal! Anyone else dreading next week?!!

Chris J77 wrote (see)

, as I have a feeling that too many too fast are going to be a recipe for fatigue / injury.

Correct. This is the risk of training at too fast a pace, and this means that your 3 quality runs may become compromised.   MLRs and LSRs start off at the 8.10 (mp +20%) pace and progress to 7.30 pace (mp+10%). You have little to gain and a lot to lose by going to fast. For your first 20 miler I would personally be sticking to the lower end of your range (8.10mm). I would be adding 30 secs to your recovery too.

1.23 is a good benchmark for sub 3 so  you are in greast shape re speed, endurance is where you need to improve. It is most definitely on!!

Chris,

PnD suggested paces - Your GA pace should be between 8mm and 8.30mm.

Chris J77 wrote (see)

, as I have a feeling that too many too fast are going to be a recipe for fatigue / injury.

Correct. This is the risk of training at too fast a pace, and this means that your 3 quality runs may become compromised.   MLRs and LSRs start off at the 8.10 (mp +20%) pace and progress to 7.30 pace (mp+10%). You have little to gain and a lot to lose by going to fast. For your first 20 miler I would personally be sticking to the lower end of your range (8.10mm). I would be adding 30 secs to your recovery too.

1.23 is a good benchmark for sub 3 so  you are in greast shape re speed, endurance is where you need to improve. It is most definitely on!!

Weird.....

Chris J77 wrote (see)

Im still yet to make a judgement on what I think my Marathon Target Pace will be to be honest. Probably going to wait until later into the programme and after having done a few more long runs with miles at MP. The last one was a 18 miler with 10 at MP - which averaged around 6.35 -6.40. But I can't imagine sustaining that for the full 26.2 miles!!

On anther note (and in advance of tonights 10 mile General Aerobic run) what kind of paces have people been running their GA runs at (relative to MP). I have just generally been running them by how I feel on the night (and how hard the days before have been), but I've noticed that these have been speeding up of late (maybe a sign of better endurance and training?). Last one last week was around 6.45 average, but think tonight I'll aim more towards 7.15 tonight as its recovery week and next week is looking brutal! Anyone else dreading next week?!!

HI Chris and welcome to the thread.

I'd say your GA pace of 6.45 is way way too fast. P&D says it should be between 15% - 25% slower than your planned marathon pace.

Having said that I'm guilty of running too many miles too fast as well. I think my GA miles have only been about 10% slower than my current* planned marathon pace.

*(My planned marathon place has already changed a few times and I expect it will continue to do so).

Hello Chris - I have ran a sub 3, and am aiming for 2.55...and I think you are in a better place than I am at moment. Infact I need to up my game a bit! Your paces for some of your runs do seem a tad fast for a marathon schedule though...as long as you listen to your body and step back a bit if any niggles start to avoid injury,

You have ran 18 miles so are not far off the 20 mile+ runs. The last 6 miles of a marathon  is kind've a no mans land and you never know how you are going to be until you get there. You have to train your body to burn fats/carbs smartly so you can keep going longer...and that only comes with accumulating miles in your long runs. On the day as long as you take on plenty of carbs before and during that race you should be ok, anything you're going to try in the race (e.g. gels) practice on a few of your long runs.

Cheers JF50, I think that anecdote definitely applies to my first marathon 

Chris, for a sub-3:00 marathon you'll need to run about 6:50 min/mile, so you were a bit fast for the MP section of that run.  The Marathon Pace runs seem to be some of the hardest sessions in the plan, so don't worry that the pace feels hard as its in the midst of hard training and without the external stimulus of race day.  This is where the HR rates really help - if you know what range your HR should be in (based on the figures posted by Mennania) then you know if your running faster than you should be.

just to add to that - with a 1.22 half pb maybe you should be gunning for a 2.55 too!

Having now got a good way into the training, 2.55 could well be an outside bet. But having never done the distance before I am all too aware that it could go completely out of the window by aiming for a time that is too fast. I have a feeling the first time is going to be a learning experience and so I think airing towards 3.00 is more realistic. I would love to do a half in the build up to see where I am at, but I don't trust myself to not 'race' it and last time I took a good week to recover from an all out half. On a positive note, I did a local 5 mile race very recently and came in just under 30 mins, which would indicate that speed isn't dropping off, which I feared it might with all the long steady running. Think I'll take it easier tonight though for the GA run in prep for next week.

Some interesting stuff on the last couple of pages.  I am a much slower runner than most of the contributors on them, looking for a 3.45 at VLM, so the marathon paces you are all talking of are more like my VO2 runs, but the same theory applies I guess what ever the speed.  Like some of your comments, this is the first time I have used this programme and sometimes some of it feels so different from other schedules so I guess all of us go into with having to be confident that it has worked.

There are some important points at the start of the book about a good marathoner should train to be, and if the programme does achieve all those points then the last 6 miles should be "fun"

JF50 - Ha

Chris - Im aiming for sub 3 but im not running as fast as you on most of my runs.

My paces are pretty much what the book suggest so -

LR - 8.15-7.30,  MLR - 8.15-7.30, LTR 6.20-6.30 my general aerobic and recovery runs are about 8.30-9.00 at the moment because im deliberately running them as easy as possible.

I think for someone that has recently taken up running your times are pretty quick and its only a matter of time before your break 3 hrs and youll probably go a lot quicker than that if you want to eventually.

I think the sensible option would be to set a modest goal for the marathon, maybe 3.10 that will give you a good for age place the following year, if you feel good on the day you might be able to pick up the pace later on.

Depends on how much you want to break 3 hrs now and if you are prepared for it to go wrong on the day. This is my 3rd marathon so its all or nothing for me, sub 3 or bust! My first marathon i was happy to get round and set a target that was way too modest but it is a good feeling when you are still going strong in those last six miles.