P + D training for VLM 2013

JF50 wrote (see)

Interesting views on increasing the 20 milers, I suppose what is interesting is some people keep saying about sticking really close to plan and having faith and then indicate the extra miles on some of the long ones, 15w perhaps changing daily much as  his tennis forecasts really

Well spotted JF50! I think can be dangerous to keep adding mileage to the schedule in thinking that their simply isn't enough of it - as that way lies injury or overtraining. The schedules have been thought out and probably wise to adhere to.

Saying that, I am adding a mile or two to some of the long runs (!) just so I have more 20+ ones in there...and I added a mile to yesterdays cause I missed a few miles last week.

This must be one of the busiest threads on the forum!

Ten, hope your daughter's birthday goes well. 

I had a similar experience with the 18 miler yesterday - first nine miles into a bitterly cold headwind, really tested my commitment as at some points I was more concerned about staying on my feet rather than maintaining pace.  However the return nine miles with tail wind and the sunny sky (the calm afer the storm) made the running fell good.  I have to admit to a short break at the mid-point, as I took two minutes to enjoy the stunning view over the estuary.  I'm glad I didn't extend this run, as I was to tempted to push it upto 20 miles, because my legs were feeling it by the end.  I am feeling very chuffed as its the first time I've ever run more than 50m in one week.  

This thread is definitely helping me, as during the low points of my run I knew there were others out there battling through even worse conditions 

HeOw wrote (see)

Thanks everyone for kind words, it's not too bad, I guess I've underestimated my asthma and price I would pay when weather was very bad. I feel ok but when I'm out, it's hell and a normal easy run was feeling very hard. I feel pretty much 100% today, bar the cough lingering a bit, so I shall go out later with aim to run long and just see how I feel.

Chickadee - well done on 60 miles! I was surprised when I hit 58 how good I felt, all the slow miles are the key. What time you aiming for?

Good to hear you are feeling better. Hopefully the cold temps are gone now which should make running feel a lot better.
I'm hoping for sub 3:25 (current PB 3:29) although I have yet to test the marathon pace that's required and see how that feels

Alan_B wrote (see)

16 miles for me today at around 15% below MP. The slowest long run i've done and felt great for it. Apart from the howling gales, torrential hail stones and swimming pool sized puddles that is!

Only managed 35 miles this week due to the muscle strain when the programme asked for 62 but just glad to be back running so soon after injury.

15West wrote (see)

JF50 wrote (see)

Interesting views on increasing the 20 milers, I suppose what is interesting is some people keep saying about sticking really close to plan and having faith and then indicate the extra miles on some of the long ones, 15w perhaps changing daily much as  his tennis forecasts really

Well spotted JF50! I think can be dangerous to keep adding mileage to the schedule in thinking that their simply isn't enough of it - as that way lies injury or overtraining. The schedules have been thought out and probably wise to adhere to.

Saying that, I am adding a mile or two to some of the long runs (!) just so I have more 20+ ones in there...and I added a mile to yesterdays cause I missed a few miles last week.

Man this thread moves quickly - I last posted a couple of days ago, about 10 pages back! No idea I'd created such a monster...

Good to see some new joiners and the continuing excellent advice and support, and well done everyone for adapting their schedules around the snow.

Mark1981 - we really are very similar, same age, 3rd marathon, same goal of 2.59.59.99...

Chris J77 - sounds like you have some natural talent, if your training goes well I reckon 2.50 would be a realistic target. Good luck!

As for me...I just had a disheartening run. This week's 10M w 5M LT, hoping to hit sub 6.25 on the LT miles but only managed 6.35 at the absolute upper limit of HRR (88%) for the whole 5 miles. It's got me thinking that sub 3 might be a little too ambitious. Getting really frustrated because I've seen no improvement in my threshold pace and it was actually lower (6.20) in October when I was just doing fairly random pre-training. Also wondering if sub 3 is possible on the up to 55/week plan.

Oh well, on with the schedule...

Al Runs, don't worry too much about the LT pace at the moment, as hopefully this will improve in the second meso-cycle.  This is what I'm telling myself as its the bit I'm struggling with too!

Chickadee, good to hear its warming up with you as well, the -15 you mentioned before still makes me shiver 

Not time to pick your final pace yet Al Runs - 6.35 12 weeks out isnt a million miles away and I bet by the end of feb you are on it. Your pace may be down since Oct but I wager your endurance is significantly up

20 mile runs - General wisdom on all threads (particularly faster end - sub 3.15) suggests 5 longest runs should add up to minimum of 100. preferably with all 20+ but 2x21 1x18 and 2x 20 should be ok. I shuffle to fit them in and will knock the miles of the midweek MLR if the load is getting too high. This weeks schedule looks fun - particularly given it is Rugby time on Sat!!

Thanks guys, I won't give up on the goal just yet then. Currently reading Tyler Hamilton's book about Armstrong's doping and I can't help feeling that a little EPO might just give me the edge I need... Who was it who was trying beetroot juice shots? Any good?

Chris, that's amazing that you've banished those years of smoking and actually started to use it as motivation. Nice training trick.

I tried the beet juice once during a long run. It was pretty rank to drink to be honest (even with the lemon overkill) and I wouldn’t fancy carrying it during the marathon as the bottles are a bit unwieldy to carry. Can’t say I noticed any major benefits after just one shot, but I’m not sure if you are meant to take it regularly to build up levels in your system etc? anyone know? I know that David Weir swears by it and reckons it’s one of the reasons he won the wheelchair marathon at the Olympics. So it must be pretty good!

Oh – one other side affect from just one shot was that everything that comes out of you will be purple. And I mean everything! Ha.

Al: don't beat yourself up. I always find those LT sessions goddamn hard. High mileage knocks off a lot of speed, at least for me (and I'm not particularly fast to start with). Give it time. Those sessions should feel easier as the schedule goes on. From memory just when I hit the paces ok and started to love the LT sesh it got replaced by intervals

Tried beetroot - didn't do anything for me other than cause pink wee  and it tastes . I think you are supposed to drink half a litre a day for the 4 days leading up to your race (or something like that). Not for me, thanks ...

Wow, this is a very busy thread - dare to blink and you miss 2 pages!

Massive kudos to everyone that made it out in the quite spectacularly miserable weather this weekend, a true sign of commitment to the cause.

A rest day from running for me, lunchtime circuits class instead. Not my favourite activity but just glad to be out of the wind and rain and sleet etc..

No Pain - what plan are you following?

As for the LT discussion, i think it's perfectly understandable to be struggling to hit pace at this stage. Your body is still trying to adjust to the increased mileage and hard sessions. I always think you should be setting your threshold pace on your current fitness, not your target fitness and then it will improve as the programme goes on.

Al runs never thanked you properly for starting this thread off; think lots of us now getting motivation from it. Keep going for the sub 3, it will be after the next cycle and well into the third before you can know if its on.

The beet juice thing is now only 1 of the beet it shots for 3 days before race day, not during the race at all. The ideas is that this builds up nitrate levels which increase O2 uptake efficiency in muscles therefore improving performance. I've tried it twice and suppose its difficult to say if it worked (no control test) but am convinced by the science. Prolonge increased nitrate not good though so is not something to be doing over a longer period of time.

Just off for 5 miles easy now

Having returned from tonights party for my daughter and her firends aged 5 to 7, I now know the true meaning of the word "exhaustion" .  P&D is a doddle in comparison.

Tenjiso wrote (see)

Having returned from tonights party for my daughter and her firends aged 5 to 7, I now know the true meaning of the word "exhaustion" .  P&D is a doddle in comparison.

Ah Bless .. I remember those days...now I have grand kids to exhaust me, but actually I didn't feel as bad as I thought I was going to today it is the first time I have stayed up to look after the little one after a night shift and expected to feel like pooh..I always , always go to bed and never stay up after a shift !!!.but I managed to get a nap the same time as him after lunch and felt refreshed enough for a 5 miler tonight.

Dreading tomorrows LT session..it my most hated sessions EVER !! I would rather run 21 miles and to make it worse the forecast is s**t

After last weeks recovery week I felt fairly fresh so didn't want to wait until tomorrow to do my 10m with 5 @ LT. However due to the wind I decided to do the 5 @ LT on a treadmill.

I did the 1st 5 miles were ran on the streets close to my gym at an avg of 7.45 m/m with an avg HR of 78% of max. The avg pace and the perceived effort for each of the miles varied hugely depending on whether I was running with or against the wind.

The 5 miles on the treadmill averaged 6.45mm with an avg HR of 86% of max. TBH it seemed harder maintaining that pace indoors than it usually does on the roads but I'm quite pleased with the workout.

Re Beetroot Juice - I'm a big fan of beetroot juice. Well let me rephrase that, I think beetroot juice is fairly disgusting but am convinced that the benefits make drinking it worthwhile. I have consumed 500ml 2 or 3 hours before a few 5ks and thought that it made a noticeable difference to my performance.

An abstract of an interesting study by the University of Exeter can be found here however it might not be the best idea for people with a delicate stomach. I think I'll get some of the Beet Shots to try in the future. 

Morning all...like a lot of you I also have a LT run today. 10 mi w/ 5 @LT pace. For last LT workout I did the 5mi bit on a trail loop near my work, 6 times round was just about 5 mi, so I'll probably do that again. Think I'll be running it in the rain though. Hope all your LT runs go well. Ziggy I have done a fair amount of LT runs on treadmills, the biggest difference is not having to worry about sticking to the pace as treadmill takes care of that, and getting very hot and sweaty on the treadmill.

I have tried a beetshot but only in a marathon expo thingy; didn't think tasted too bad...I keep thinking of stocking up then taking in the days leading up to a race but haven't yet. May do this time.