P + D training for VLM 2013

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06/11/2012 at 13:29

Tek - thanks, i had a read through P&D last night. Was trying to imagine running at 5k pace and watcHing the HR

What's with German marathons, do you have folks/friends out there ? Last time i was in Hamburg was for a boys weekend ... don't remember much of it

 

A very cold and mostly dark 10M done and dusted by 7am today, 72%HR @ 8:45m/m ... HR was pretty solid as well which was pleasing

Getting out in the dark and cold is tough but running as the sun comes up makes it well worhtwhile.

 

06/11/2012 at 14:30

mace: I'm German and I live in Hamburg . I used to live near London from 1998 to 2010 though. Now back home. Come and visit  Hamburg is a solid city marathon. Not as crowded as London and Berlin (I think around 10-15000 runners) and therefore pretty fast. It's flat, it takes in the major sights and if the sun is out you get decent crowd support. It's usually the last Sunday in April so can be hot. I did it in 08 and 09 and both times it was in the low 20s. Too much for me . Mind you, they scheduled it for April 21 2013 so chances are that temperatures will still be moderate.
Good going on your 10 miler today!

Teknik wrote (see)

I'm amazed at just how much a mara sets you back in pace/ HR terms...it's going to be a long road back again

I hear ya, Tek. When was your marathon?

GazOC wrote (see)

Tek, you think doing more Hadd and the 12 week P&D program would be more benefital than less Hadd and the 18 week? I'm sort of leaning that way myself to give Hadd every opportunity to kick in.

+ 1. I still find 18 weeks of P&D a leeettle draining. Like others said, their LT paces are hard and those Sunday long runs with huge chunks of MP are tough too. I tried the HADD + 12 P&D successfully for my autumn marathon. By the time I had to do MP it was less daunting because it coincided with my sub-LT pace . And I PBd by over 9mins so it can't have been bad

stutyr wrote (see)

I had been toying with the idea of starting the plan two weeks early (3rd Dec) so that any unexpected lay-offs (minor injuries, cough/cold etc) still allowed me to complete the plan.  Has anyone successfully used this approach?  

Good idea, stu. Winter is the time for colds and coughs so we are very likely to lose a week or two. Building a cushion into the schedule means you can relax and take a few more days off until you are 100% well again. We all know what the pressure of a schedule can do and how quickly sensibility is thrown out of the window

06/11/2012 at 14:50

forgot to wave at alehouse . Nice to see you on here. Your training tips always make a lot of sense.

06/11/2012 at 15:07

Ship-star: another way I check aerobic development is by comparing stats on my Garmin Connect data. e.g. today I did a 6M recovery run @ 62% HRR, av pace 8:02 min/mile, so I'll look down the list and find other runs of the same length and %HRR and check out the difference in pace. So I see in April I did a similar run, av pace 8:36, and in December 2011 it was 8:54. Not 100% scientifically accurate but you start to see the trend. 

chickadee (and others): have to say I am a little concerned about feeling drained from 18 weeks of P&D. I'm thinking I'll take the long runs with MP with a pinch of salt and do the MP stuff 5 - 10 seconds slower per mile.

GazOC: interesting that %HRmax works better for you, specially at lower %s. It took me a little while to get my head round HRR, and it seems to feel right so I'm sticking with it. Garmin Connect doesn't deal in HRR so I've made myself a lookup table so I don't have to do the maths. In fact I made a version for a running buddy who finds it useful so if anyone wants a bespoke conversion table from %HRmax to %HRR, just tell me your HR rest and HR max and I'll send it over...colour coded with P&D zones too...

06/11/2012 at 15:25

chick' - it sounds like a great marathon. I'd like to go back to Hamburg in the next few years as i have a good friend out there. I think maybe i'll get some cooler ones in first though, 20deg + sounds a bit harsh on the old HR  

 

I think you and Tek have sold the idea of 12 weeks P&D to me and i'll fill it out with plenty of HADD and chuck in a week off over XMAS. 18 weeks P&D to Brighton means a pre-XMAS start ... i'm sure i'll put in a few miles here and there over XMAS but i think a little rest around that time would be good.

06/11/2012 at 15:30

Al - agree, 18 weeks does sound hefty.

06/11/2012 at 16:07

I haven't pinned down a plan yet, but if I do another P&D plan I will be sticking  with the 18 week version.

The 18 week plan has plenty of recovery weeks, and the first 6 weeks are fairly light in terms of intensity with a few miles of LT or MP running. If you get into any injury issues on the 18 week plan, one of two light weeks doesn't impact quite as much as a 12 week plan. The first six weeks are fairly close to what I would be doing base building

06/11/2012 at 16:21
AR- with you on that.

I'm starting PD 55 to 70 18 weeks on 25th November. About a month after finishing the last dose. I'm going to drop the doubles again for sure! For non elites these seem pointless. Might up the 22 to 24 this time and at least one other 22. I did two 22s last campaign as not satisfied with first 22!

I think the key to PD is to try and make sure you hit the key work outs hard (Sunday long run, mid week mediums and the tempo/ LTRs) The aerobics and recoveries are fillers and those are the days to skip if you have to due to circumstances. The 15 mile mid week runs during the middle of the campaign can be a slog as they come thick and fast and are often followed by other tough runs. There is one week where there is a Lactate threshold run on the Friday followed by a 22 mile on the Sunday and that was a tough week.
Edited: 06/11/2012 at 16:22
06/11/2012 at 16:28

For both the 55 and 70 mile versions of P&D, what should one's weekly mileage be before starting these programmes?

06/11/2012 at 16:34

Ship-star: in the book they say:

55: at least 25M a week and in the last month you should have completed a run close in length to the to the long run called for in the first week of the schedule (12M)

70: at least 45M a week and first week long run is 15M

06/11/2012 at 16:35
Ship- for the upto 55 plan you should be coming off a decent base of say 30 miles a week and have run at least 12 to 13 miles as your long run. For 55 to 70 - 40 to 50 base and a long run of at least say 15 miles. There is no honey moon period on the higher mileage plans and they launch into fairly high mileage from the off.
06/11/2012 at 16:35
AR - we are near enough !!
06/11/2012 at 16:41

I ran my first 30 mile week last week, ran a 12mile LR recently and have a race (13.1miles) in just over a week so I should be fine for the 18/55. There's a good chance I'll try and run a few extra easy miles extra anyway because I'm not massively confident the 18/55 plan will get me the sub-3h I am aiming for.

06/11/2012 at 16:45
SS- what's your back ground in terms of race times? Guess you must be pretty experienced for an assault on sub 3.
06/11/2012 at 16:46

Ship-star: what time you aiming for in your HM? Which one is it? Sounds like you'd be fine for the 18/55 but I agree you may want to be swapping out some sessions from the 18/70 if you're feeling ok.

06/11/2012 at 16:55

Dylan- Far from experienced I'm afraid, I have only been running for about 6months. I'm hoping that a decent sporting background will help and with youth on my side (if 26 is considered youthful) it maybe possible with 8months of training. I've ran a sub19 - 5k and sub40 - 10k quite recently.

Al- I will be aiming to finish in under 1:28, obviously I'm not in sub-3 shape right now but I'm hoping to knock that time down to 1:23 for the Silverstone half. I have read a few times that 1:23-1:24 range is good indicator that you're in sub3 condition.

06/11/2012 at 16:58

chick' - it sounds like a great marathon. I'd like to go back to Hamburg in the next few years as i have a good friend out there. I think maybe i'll get some cooler ones in first though, 20deg + sounds a bit harsh on the old HR  

 

I think you and Tek have sold the idea of 12 weeks P&D to me and i'll fill it out with plenty of HADD and chuck in a week off over XMAS. 18 weeks P&D to Brighton means a pre-XMAS start ... i'm sure i'll put in a few miles here and there over XMAS but i think a little rest around that time would be good.

06/11/2012 at 17:04
SS- that's a great ambition to run your first marathon in sub 3 but and as you say age and fitness on your side. I'm no expert but would say that's going to take a massive amount of dedication and natural ability. Until you've tried at the longer distances who knows how you will fair. There are plenty of 1.20 half runners who struggle to break 3 but plenty of 1.25 who do. I would say a good plan would be to get your base mileage up get in half shape and then reassess realistically where you are. You say 8 months away? Which marathon are you targeting? Sounds like starting PD now is too early?
Edited: 06/11/2012 at 17:06
06/11/2012 at 17:12
Dylan man wrote (see)
AR - we are near enough !!

DM - are you following the 5 week recovery plan from P&D. I'm closely following it but am still coming back from injury so have curtailed a couple of runs. I had a very slow 10 miles on Sunday which didn't feel great. Also trying to hang on to some of the cardio fitness with some cross training. My physio gave me a full strenghtening programme to get into before I start the next plan - went through it all yesterday, and today the hips and glutes are really feeling it.

06/11/2012 at 17:21
Hi AR- sorry to hear your struggling a bit but not surprised with your recent results. You deserve a long lie down in a darkened room!!

Yes, loosely following the PD recovery but have caved into temptation and ran a little quicker than recovery pace. On Saturday night I gave it a bit of a blast to see how legs were and speed levels. Ran to feel and thought I was somewhere near my Half pace of 6.15/6.20. Garmin beeped and 6.51!! Feel like I have definitely lost some pace post marathon which I guess is normal. Heart rate is normal though!

I am targeting half on 3rd March and marathon on 7th April. Hopefully sub 3 assault to join the club.
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