Plan to improve 10k time - Training

Lamb Chop

04/07/2011 at 13:57

Team,

I'm keen to get a bit more structure into my weekly running. In particular I'd like to knock a decent chunk off my 10k time of just under 47mins.

My current schedule looks like this:

1 x long easy run 60-70 mins
2 x steady runs 40-45 mins
1 x coached track session with local running club...
1 or 2 trips to the gym (mainly core / upper body exercise)

I'd be grateful if anyone could either (1) point me at a good plan or (2) suggest tweaks (or total overhaul) of the above schedule. I'm happy to put in more time and effort...I'm just not sure what I should be doing.

Thanks

Sussex Runner (NLR)

04/07/2011 at 14:27

Take one of your steady runs and insert 20-30 mins of tempo run into it. That is to say that you need to put in some near to 10k pace in there sustained for 2-3 miles. Thats a tweak

Lamb Chop

04/07/2011 at 14:36

Thanks NLR...good tweaking!

2 questions on the tempo run

How close to 10k pace
Is the 20-30 mins continuous or intervals

Cheers

Sussex Runner (NLR)

04/07/2011 at 14:50

Good question. The miles should be continuous and simulate the feeling over a race. 2-3 miles where you leave your comfort zone.

Pammie*

04/07/2011 at 14:55

I'd increase the length of your long run to at least 90 minutes ideally 2 hours but it mustn't be too long compared to rest of weekly

Ideally long run should be about 25% of weekly mileage no more than 30% so you mmay need to increase other runs to balance it out.

But do it gradually

Lamb Chop

04/07/2011 at 14:55

Will give it a go...sounds fun!

cougie

pirate

04/07/2011 at 15:20

Theres not a huge amount of miles there ? Maybe 22 or so ? So you cant expect miracles.

If it was me - I'd bin the gym. Time spent running will pay off far better.

Theres plenty of ways to skin a cat, or pb a 10k, but you need more miles.

In your long run - you probably do what 7 miles or so ? So you'll never be happy racing flat out for 10k ?

As someone suggested - 90 min long run would be better, and up the distance of the others too. I'd just run them steady and look to get some interval work in.

Maybe start with Yassos and then up them to mile repeats at slightly higher than your target pace and increase each week.

Lamb Chop

04/07/2011 at 16:34

Thanks

longer long run - check
less gym more running - check

Quick question for you regarding the scheduling of the more intensive sessions. In the recommendations above we have:

tempo run (at or around target pace) and
yassos > mile repeats (quicker than 10k pace)

Should I be looking to:

run both of these sessions each week
stick to one or the other
alternate weekly or some other combo

Edited: 04/07/2011 at 16:38

Sussex Runner (NLR)

04/07/2011 at 17:57

I wouldn't bin the gym. A strong core is vital to good running. More miles would mean better performance-that's pretty obvious. Agree the longer long run would be good for your strength and stamina. Yasoos are going to be pretty much like your track session so no need to replicate it.The times should come tumbling down.

05/07/2011 at 03:46

long run
at your level i disagree entirely with the advice that you need to extend your long run. i would say keep the long run as it is. if you want to run more miles i would do it by running some shorter runs a week.

interval
one coached track session is fantastic and you should definitely keep it. it needs to be a high volume, 5k pace sessio. do not replace this with a retarded RW yasso interval session. please.

tempo/mile reps
good idea. maybe once every week or two one of these but a good suggestion.

gym
i would keep a session every week. i would suggest you do a 20 minute basic cardio session when you are there. long term a gym session every week is an asset and it helps prevent overuse injuries so it can often be a mistake to remove this completely from any training scedule. i have done this in the past and believe me i regretted it.

general
i do not think there is much wrong with your schedule to be honest. it looks like you made a good start with 10k training. of course they will say run more but this is always the advice you get in the end. there is more than one way to rome so whatever you decide i suggest it is best to make small changes based on people's advice, rather than any total overhaul. add in any extra running slowly so you can adapt. best of luck. HTH

Edited: 05/07/2011 at 04:01

05/07/2011 at 04:26

yasso intervals as i understand it is 10x800m with equal time length recovery. the session has too long recovery as you get the same recovery time as running time, which is ridiculous.

these are 5k paced 800m sessions that i have done, which is what they do at my club.

8x800m with 60-75s recovery
8x800m with 400m jog recovery

The marathon schedule for this would be 10x800m and the difference is there is minimal recovery. you get about half your running time to recover from the session. even then these sessions take forever.

the sessions are completely different to me and if you do not understand it is vitally important you stay within your club and coaches to do intervals. Take too much recovery and the intervals can become ineffective. 'Anyone can run fast repetitions and have a cup of tea and a doughnut after each repetition' - Frank Horwill

hope this clarifies my opinion on that session you mention.

Edited: 05/07/2011 at 04:28

Moraghan

05/07/2011 at 10:29

> wrote (see)

yasso intervals as i understand it is 10x800m with equal time length recovery. the session has too long recovery as you get the same recovery time as running time, which is ridiculous.
these are 5k paced 800m sessions that i have done, which is what they do at my club.
8x800m with 60-75s recovery
8x800m with 400m jog recovery
The marathon schedule for this would be 10x800m and the difference is there is minimal recovery. you get about half your running time to recover from the session. even then these sessions take forever. the sessions are completely different to me and if you do not understand it is vitally important you stay within your club and coaches to do intervals. Take too much recovery and the intervals can become ineffective. 'Anyone can run fast repetitions and have a cup of tea and a doughnut after each repetition' - Frank Horwill hope this clarifies my opinion on that session you mention.

The bold looks like a total contradiction. How long does it take you to jog 400m in your 8 * 800m session?

If you're taking 400m to jog a recovery in a 5k paced session of 800s that is too low an intensity for what you're describing. With your 8 * 800m session at 5k pace you are guilty of the exact same "retarded" thing you're criticising. Perhaps worse as Yasso's (although shit) are at least usually done at faster than 5k pace.

Edited: 05/07/2011 at 10:47

05/07/2011 at 22:39

I have only done that session twice to be honest and I ran it over a year ago so perhaps I have not remembered it right. I think the coach was trying to get everyone to try an alternative to standing recoveries. Really my point was not to stop club interval training and start doing yasso interavls instead, which is nuts, but what people suggested !

The yasso interval as I understand is based not on pace but on the time you want to finish the marathon. I thought it was far slower than 5k pace. If you do the maths the session sounds ridiculous to me. 4 hour marathon runner does 10 x 800m so they would run each 800m in 4 minutes and they take 4 minute recoveries. That makes the session 1h20 mins long. Including recovery and warm down they would be 1h40. Am I missing something big here because that does not make sense to me? I do not know why it would be recommended to any 10k runner.

Edited: 05/07/2011 at 22:44

cougie

pirate

05/07/2011 at 23:24

As I said - plenty of ways to get a PB. As the OP is already doing sessions with a club and presumably isnt improving (or else why ask for advice) then something should change ? I found yassos useful for me but I've never stuck rigidly to the recovery length, and from what I've read the recovery is fine so long as it's less than the actual interval. No doubt there will be a contradictory finding out there too. Moraghan knows his stuff though so I'd go with his advice.

Edited: 06/07/2011 at 00:51

Moraghan

06/07/2011 at 08:56

> - the idea of the yasso session as I understand it is to base your marathon goal pace on the workout rather than the other way round. They are typically done at faster than 5k pace.

However, you're quite right the whole idea is completely preposterous. It's one of those workouts which doesn't really suit anything in particular.

That's why I was surprised at your 400m recoveries off 5k reps which would only make sense if you were shifting a bit for the 400m and then it turns into a huge session if they are done reasonably fast. He was probably doing it to stop you all texting between reps!

PhilPub

06/07/2011 at 11:01

Re: Yasso's - where did the idea of recovery time being equal to the rep time come from? Apart from this (which I appreciate is a significant element of the session) Yasso's are pretty decent 5k pace session. During marathon training I would typically build up from 6 - 8 x 800m to 10 x 800m w/ 200m recovery. For a 2:3x - 2:40 interval the recovery would be about 90 secs. This to me would yield about 5k pace for a tough work-out.

I do think that something like 8 x 800m with sensible recoveries would be good for 10k training.

SophieC

06/07/2011 at 11:28

Lamb Chop, is it worth speaking to your coach and/or others that you train with to see what they do or recommend? It may even be that you could get together to train on additional days - a bit of 'competition' always helps to get the speed down!

Lamb Chop

06/07/2011 at 12:16

Cougie - I am satisfied with the progress I've made to date but feel ready and able to step it up a bit...hence the question about the shape of my training week.

Sophie - I will definitely ask the coach for his thoughts. Sometimes the content of the track sessions feel a bit random and I'm considering dropping down to once a fortnight and swapping in some of the sessions recommended here. Good point about come competition / collaboration.

All - thanks for your suggestions...now to start putting some of this into practice!

Sussex Runner (NLR)

06/07/2011 at 12:28

Go kick some bottom!!!

DC 1

06/07/2011 at 14:05

First off, theres nothing intrinsically wrong with your training. Its roughly the same as my training week, although my PB's are 4:50 for one mile, 9:30 for 3000m and 35:22 for 10k. However, you dont tell us the speeds you are running at. It may well be that if you simply increase the pace of your steady runs by about 10-15s and modify that long run it may well be enough.

More specifically:

Run the long run for the same duration but on trails or mountain terrain to build strength and endurance, and also the mental strength to push hard which is required in a 10K.
Add 5 x 50m strides following one of your steady state runs.
For the other steady state run, run the final mile at 10k pace.
Substitute the gym for a cross training regimen in the park, involving 20mins easy running, squats, lunges, press ups, sit ups and planks.

Enjoy smashing 45 minutes.

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