Speed Endurance for 10k?

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19/11/2012 at 10:37

Hi Tony,

Yea, the 4 mile race pace time trial one week before the race has helped me find out really where I am several times in the past. I'll continue to do it in my 10K preparations.

I think your 5K race time gives a better indication of where you are in respect of your 10K than the splits that you have provided. Your splits provided come to a slower time than the 10K enroute to your 10 mile training run!

I'd bet that right now if you were to double last week's 5K time and add a minute you'd be close to how you'd do over 10K.....circa 41 mins.

As for getting down to sub 40 minutes in your 10K. Forget trying to do that before you are 40!! You're nearly there now. A solid 2 months structured training would see you crack it, I'm sure.

I notice that you seem to run your weekly longer run flat out. Conventional thinking seems to support the view that your weekly long run should be at a slow, conversational pace that keeps your heart rate in an aerobic zone (Wilkopedia has a good article on anaerobic/aerobic heartrates/training zones. Runners need to work on their aerobic system as well as train anaerobically.......it seems that your training is largely anaerobic (all running done at 80%+ of max heart rate)?

The best way to quick gains are two quality sessions a week (pick between speed reps/intervals/shorter distance time trials/hill reps/tempo runs) have at least one rest day weekly, run a long slow run weekly and for the rest of the week build up your mileage with a few slower runs at easy pace.

If you want some inspiration, I know a lady who took up running in her early 40s (and is now 48!) who ran a 37:19 10K this year. You haven't even scratched the surface of where you can get to.....

Let us know how you get on.

 

19/11/2012 at 13:02
timinho wrote (see)
Hi all, we'll thanks to the time trial suggestion, I came in unofficially at 39:12!! Really chuffed and I can recommend the event. once you're out of the industrial estate after 2k it is a really scenic route with great views from the. top of the hill. Last 200 metres we're painful, felt dizzy and like I was going to be sick but avoided that thankfully. I'm amazed at how you step it up in a race situation...anyone got any recommendations for books about the psychology of running?

Nice one Timinho, that's a corking run.  Puts my "oooh my legs are a bit tired" finishes into perspective.  I shall endeavour to give more effort in my next race - you are an inspiration!

19/11/2012 at 20:58
Jamie, thanks for the encouragement and advice . Like a lot on here, I try and juggle work and family along with a few runs meaning I've not really done a long run until Sunday . Your prob right about pace as I tend to run quite hard all the time thinking it will make up for lack of miles though I'll probably end up injured so I will ease off on long run and take the advice.
I'm hoping to break 40 mins but may struggle as awaiting a double hernia op and removal of gallbladder ( i dont do things by halves) which is due in December, so the ulverston 10km Xmas pud run is my only real chance until I recover and get fit again, be nice to know how long it takes after op to get back jogging .
I reckon I could run a 10km in about 41mins as you say, but although its only 61 seconds away from a sub 40, it may be too much to make up, I will try and run about 4 min 5 sec km for first 5km and see how I feel for a late surge . Thanks again for the advice.
19/11/2012 at 21:55
Hi all,

my split times can be explained as follows:

Mile 1 & 2 were slower because I didn't want to burn out too early, mile 3 was mostly uphill, mile 4 was mostly flat and I needed to make up some time, 5 & 6 were downhill and flat so I tried to continue my mile 4 pace. Crikey Tony! Hope the op/ops go well and you recover speedily. Good luck with your race, like to hear how you get on.

My pb before I went under 40 was 40:57 so it is possible you have it in you already. Stay positive and keep attacking the next runner in front of you, in a measured way of course! Depending on the course you could bag a sub 40 before your op!

Lou, when's your next race?

I'm interested in the mileage debate. I tend only to run to work twice a week which adds up to ten miles, I cycle the same distance a week and then do a 8-12 mile run when I can fit it in at a weekend. I did slightly longer runs in last month before my hm but I can't fit much more in with work and other commitments. This all does mean that when I do run, it's usually a quality one.
19/11/2012 at 22:25
Thanks timinho , I will certainly give it my best shot! I know what you mean by quality runs when you can't get the miles in , that is similar to me but going to try a couple if easy jogs combined with two hard runs and see if I hit lucky!

One positive of waiting for an op is not had any alcohol or treats in last 8 weeks, 7 llbs lighter can only be good news for running

What is the best pace to set off for a 10km race, last one I did was the one I'm doing in couple weeks but it was 4 years ago, I remember going to quick and struggling the last mile so don't want to do the same mistake but alas I don't want to be too conservative. I could do with finding someone who I know will run 40m 30 and track and then have a go in last 1.5km with a kick
19/11/2012 at 23:46

Top run Timinho Well Done.

20/11/2012 at 12:39

Next race is an 8 mile xc on Sunday.  Can't find a convenient local 10k in the near future, but I gues that give me more time to train.

Just about to go out for a muddy lunchtime 6 miler.  I going to try Jamie's prerace time trial - I reckon for an 8 mile xc I should be looking at about 6:55 so I'll try a few miles at that pace.  Not sure if I'll keep it up across the freshly ploughed bits.

Tony - best to try to pace it evenly.  Difficult as everyone always sets off to quick.  A few times when I've tried to stick to my target pace and it feels like i'm going backwards as everyone pushes past at 5m/m.  I find chasing people down in the latter stages motivating.

20/11/2012 at 17:29

I was always guilty of going out fast and then trying to hold on and hating every minute of a 10k. It always felt more like 10 hard bloody miles as i burnt out at 5km.

Did my first 10k (Brighton) at the weekend for several years and tried completely new tactics. I've been working hard at finishing strong and running negative splits and employed that on Sunday. First km was faster than target but always is, then settled into a slightly slower than target pace for the next 4 kms, and then attacked the last 5km with the final 2km being the fastest of the run.

Like Lou, I find chasing people down a real motivator in the latter stages and a real buzz

20/11/2012 at 18:22
Thanks Lou and johnas. Johnas what splits did you run? From memory,I'm normally the one being chased down. I think I will change tactics.
Lou, good luck with your cross country, I've not done one for 22 years maybe a target to do one next year when fit again
21/11/2012 at 07:23

Splits to follow Tony but firstly, apologies for just butting into this thread. Having read back through it now, there's some great training and advice being shared. My (km) splits on Sunday were 3.26, 3.35, 3.35, 3.37, 3.37, 3.34, 3.33, 3.33, 3.31, 3.27 (Chip 35.28).

For speed work, I usually do 1x track session a week (Tuesday), a tempo run of sorts (Thursday) and hill session (Sat). In recent wweeks ive returned to training after Berlin marathon and focussed on last Sunday's 10k as my target race.

The key sessions geared towards the 10k in recent weeks have been:

  1. 10mins @ threshold + 6x 3mins faster than 5k pace (90 second recoveries)
  2. 45mins steady to include 5x 5mins @ threshold (60sec recoveries)
  3. 6mins @ threshold + 3sets of 4x 400m @ 5k pace (100m jog recoveries and 2 mins between sets)
  4. 5k Parkrun
  5. 10 mins @ 10k pace + 5x 2mins @ 5k pace + 10 mins @ 10k pace (2 min jog recoveries)

Where Jamie uses a 4 mile race pace time trial, I always use a Parkrun - distance is accurate and it adds the 'competition' element into the mix of other runners, adrenaline etc.

One of the key sessions in lead up to Sunday was session 5 above: I ran the first 10mins at the 10k pace i planned to start the race, I then ran the 2mins intervals at slightly faster than 5k pace to practise leg turn over and get the legs tired (simulating the key middle section of the 10k race) and then ran the final 10 mins at the pace i planned on finishing the 10k at (faster than the first 10mins interval). This simulated race conditions and gave me the confidence boost i needed going into the race.

 

21/11/2012 at 17:46

another slow 5 mile run done today, getting back there slowly lol

21/11/2012 at 19:37
Cracking splits johnas, thanks for sharing your training plan too. I can only dream of 35 mins , my first aim is to try and equal or improve my time of my last 10km 4 years ago (41m30secs) , planned attempt ulverston 10km run on December 2nd.
22/11/2012 at 11:42

to put it in perspective Tony, my PB before Sunday was 39.18. Never say never. I see a couple of V40's ran sub 30min 10k at Abbey Dash at the weekend.

You still have a couple of weeks until Ulverston. If you introduce some speedier sessions twice week until then, it wouldn't hurt. Shorter reps @ 5k or faster pace along with some threshold running would definitely help.

22/11/2012 at 12:05

Hi Johnas,

Terrific improvement there! Its terrrific to have V40s running sub 30min over 10K too!!

There seems to be quite a confusion over threshold running, lots of different definitions. How do you do your threshold sessions? Do you base it on a certain pace/mile, heartrate, perceivable effort?

22/11/2012 at 12:46
Jamie Newton 2 wrote (see)

There seems to be quite a confusion over threshold running, lots of different definitions. How do you do your threshold sessions? Do you base it on a certain pace/mile, heartrate, perceivable effort?

 

I just googled threshold pace and general recommendation in terms of pace seems to be "pace you can sustain for 1 hr".  Based on Maxmillian this seems to be around my 10 mile pace, which is more or less what I've been doing.

btw the muddy 4 mile xc attempt at threshold pace I mentioned a couple of days ago was a failure - I was about 20s/mile slow and that was very tough.  blame it on mud/hills/wind.  The dog enjoyed it though.

22/11/2012 at 12:56

So in that case I would term a threshold run a tempo run then? One that is run perhaps 10 seconds per mile slower than 10K pace.

I'm aiming to crack 10 miles for the hour this spring, but a realistic pace right now for the distance would probably be around 6:05-6:10 per mile for me.

I'd guess that 5-6 miles would be an ideal threshold distance......? Pretty much what I do in my tempo runs every other week. Last week my tempo run was 5 miles in 30 mins 9 seconds.

22/11/2012 at 13:16

Sounds about right - there's no way I could manage a 1hr 10miles, but eight-and-three-quarter-mile pace doesn't have the same ring to it.

22/11/2012 at 13:42

Cheers Jamie. As Lou says, typically threshold running is similar to tempo running and does equate to more or less to your 10 mile pace. if you use HR, then it's around 80% - 85% (average) or if by perceived effort level, then 3-4 word answers. It should be 'controlled discomfort'.

Personally, I do threshold running a couple of times a week, either before and/or after an interval session or as part of a longer steady run. A staple of my training is the 5x 6 mins @ threshold with 90 sec recovery as that basically equates to 5 miles but is less stressful on the muscles (due to the recoveries) than just running for 5 miles straight.

EDIT: I'm a pace zone person. I find HR just another thing to worry about when out running! With pace, I know where I am.

 

Edited: 22/11/2012 at 13:56
26/11/2012 at 17:13
Johnas- cracking post that is. I've started to train by HR recently so next year I'm hoping to get from 34:28 down to ..... Well any anything under 34 really. Late next year 33:xx would be very nice.
27/11/2012 at 10:49

Nice times Andy. What specific training do you do that will help you achieve that goal? What are your key sessions?

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