Sub-4 Marathon goal

Any advice would be appreciated. I have run 4 marathons but failed to break 4 hours in each - PB is 4h15m.

My PB for the Half is 1h43m.  In training I run around 40 miles a week, in 5 sessions; 1 long slow run per week, top 5 long runs adding up to 90 miles; 1 lactate threshold run a week (5 to 10 miles) at sub 8' mile pace; 1 set of intervals a week (eg 10 x 800 or 4 x 1m, at 7' mile pace); 2 easy jog days.

I am getting slightly quicker with each marathon, but nowhere near a sub-4 h.  Usual tail-off in last 6 miles.  Given my Half M time I should be well under 3h50....what am I doing wrong?

You could try more long runs in your training. Anything up to 5 x 20 plus mile long runs should help improve your marathon time.

Your half PB suggests a sub 4 is possible and if your finding it difficult for the last 6 miles I feel it is your endurance. So more long runs would help.

40 miles total weekly mileage is a bit light too. Possible build this up to 50 - 55 miles. This will also make an improvement. Just remember with the total weekly and long run mileage, only build up by no more then 10% a week.

Thanks Solent Runner

If I need to up the mileage from 40+ to 50+, that sounds like cutting one of the two rest days. What would the best use of my time be - a 10 mile marathon pace run? 

Thanks fit-running-cat

What pace did you do those very long runs of 20/21.5/23 in?

Thanks dean101

I guess that would be the link between the 40m per week and the 50m+ Solent Runner was suggesting (assuming I build up to it over a few weeks). What pace should I run a 12 miler - goal marathon pace?

I think you would benefit from extending your long runs to peak at 22, if you then work backwards from that, you'll be putting in proportionally longer runs earlier in your campaign too.

A longer midweek run really works for me, starting at about 7or 8 and building up to no more than 13 in the third week before the race.

I rarely run more than 4 times per week, I would do a long run, a midweek "longer" run, a tempo run of 5-6 miles and a session that rotated between fartlek/intervals/hills.   I often run only 3, and skip the tempo run.

Oh, and if I skip a run I go to the gym and do rowing, a tready hill session and the cross trainer.

Re the pace, for my own long runs around 30 seconds per mile slower than MP.

I really feel for you... with that training, you deserve better times. In no particular order, some random thoughts.

Is there anything else we'd want to know about you that might help us understand these times? Age/weight/injuries/athletic history/diet?

Do you feel like you're recovering enough between runs? Perhaps less is more.

What kind of race day nutrition/hydration have you been doing? Carboloading beforehand?

Were these awful conditions (hilly/cold/ ...)?

I hate to mention it, but some people just aren't cut out for distance (just as some aren't made for sprinting). If this is you, are there other distances you'd feel good about focusing on?

Good luck!

Geordie Boys description of the last 3-5 miles is spot on too.. it does get tougher. Increasing "your ability to suffer" was the phrase one coach used in a workshop.

Teknik, My long runs varied between 8.30 - 9.30 minute miles.. though there were hills in there. Never completely flat. Argueable that these runs were faster than I needed to do them at, but worked for me.

Re-reading your first post

Teknik wrote (see)

My PB for the Half is 1h43m.  In training I run around 40 miles a week, in 5 sessions; 1 long slow run per week, top 5 long runs adding up to 90 miles; 1 lactate threshold run a week (5 to 10 miles) at sub 8' mile pace; 1 set of intervals a week (eg 10 x 800 or 4 x 1m, at 7' mile pace); 2 easy jog days.

I am getting slightly quicker with each marathon, but nowhere near a sub-4 h.  Usual tail-off in last 6 miles.  Given my Half M time I should be well under 3h50....what am I doing wrong?

Not anal/ specific on threshold/ tempo/ intervals either...  Just long/ slower, medium/ hard/ recovery...

I thought intervals were meant to only be every fortnight or more?

Anyway, 1 long run Saturdays (but not every single week, occasionally a rest week) 14-23 miles

Tuesday short recovery run 5 miles or hard hills / tough run 10 miles faster pace.

thursday recovery run 8-11 miles - very slow pace 10-11 min miles.

occasionally one of these slow ones fridays too, but as a trail run, so hills - allows you to get the mileage in safely when tired.

Also football (speed session sort of), 2-3 gym classes so core work covered, and some personal training sessions.

End result 3h 48m last month - and that was on a tough course with 3 lots of varying tough hills - so on a flat, 3hr 40 ish likely according to people is possible.

Just knocked off 3min 30s of my half time last week, now 1hr 36, and was very close to getting into 1h35.

Thanks all

It is a tricky balance between getting the miles in (quality miles) and recovering.  I've just tweaked by schedule to get it over 50 miles per week and it is a scary sight.

As an example: (4 weeks to go)

M: rest

T: 22m long run

W: 4m recovery

Th: rest

Fr: 10 x 800m at 3'15" pace (I am living proof that Yasso 800 is a poor predictor) 

Sa: 6m easy

Su: 11m at goal pace (9'09") 

I've done lots of the predictor tests (eg McMillan) and the usual result is, based on the Half M time, the predicted Marathon time is too fast, whereas I am in fact much faster than predicted at shorter distances ( eg sub 40 10k).

I am a 46 year old man, 12 stone (by the end of the training !), 6 foot tall. I do all the right things re hydration/gels during the race. No excuses re conditions - my last race was Berlin (4h15). Previous PB (4h17) was Halstead (which is really hilly).

Maybe I should just go back to the 400m hurdles....

Teknik, what do you do for recovery exactly?

Best tip I got, week 2 of 20 from a sports scientist guru.. was chocolate milk straight after the LSR.. literally 2 minutes after.

Either a goodness shakes (expensive) or a kids yazoo (cheap and exactly the same, even in 2 for 1 offers). Then porridge with fruit and maybe more good food if needed on the really big runs.Tons of liquid, water, and also some zero tablets to replenish salts, minerals.

Looking at your suggested plan, seriously for me would be too much. I'd swap in some cross training for definite to be fresh. You just to do longer runs the last 3-5 weeks of your plan, rest is probably fine.

There is a sub 4 thread on here.. come join.

fit-running-cat

 Like the choccie milk idea...it's on the shopping list now.

The "recovery" run is a treadmill job, slightly uphill, at a slow pace (10' mile)

11m at goal pace...Is that with or without a warm up?

That sounds like a tough session - could you not make the goal pace sessions part of your long run i.e. 7m aerobic run, 11m at goal pace, 2m warm down for an example 20m.

Also, this would be far too hard to do every week, only 3 or 4 throughout the training plan.

Seriously choc milk works.. I was out on my feet the first week or two of long runs.

Chocolate milk is a perfect carbs and protein mix right when you need them... intravenous style !

I'd would drink anything upto 2 litres of water after that, with zero tablet in one of these.

Yazoos are in 500 ml size, but you can also get pack of 3 x 200 ml.. handy for shorter runs.

 and as for the 5 days running, no, just concentrate on the quality, especially that long run.

I got into a pretty good routine, up for small breakfast 6 ish, out at 8.30am, then finishing whatever time that week, food & choc milk after.

Oh, breakfast, other sports science thing, you've got to have something before going out.. even light.

And Dean is talking sense, you would'nt do goal pace every week.

Hi dean 101

The goal pace medium run is a new addition to the plan, so I haven't thought it through...maybe it should be 2 warm up/ 7 goal pace / 2 warm down.

My long runs in past years were mix a slow long (eg 20m) in week A, with a "fast finish" long (eg 13m with last 4m at goal pace) in week B.