The Middle Ground

It's all very well running to effort, but first need to know what that effort should be. And in a 1500 each lap can feel markedly different from the others.

Whether or not those slow down/speed up signals are at odds with what you're feeling sort of depends on what you're expecting to feel. Early in my season I expected the effort level to feel much more similar across the laps than it actually did. Now, with a bit of expeience I know how each lap should feel and would probably be OK without the lap splits.

As for 800s, it's been a rare occasion for me that the first lap has felt fast enough. The one time I ran the first lap at a pace that "felt right" I went through in 63 and completely blew up with a 71 second lap. Sometimes if you don't slam the brakes on yourself the lactic passenger will do it for you. Much better to be in control surely.

So, if we're talking runners experienced over the distance then I'll largely agree with you. But if we're talking about YD trying to break 5 minutes, I'd say that feedback in the form of lap splits is a massive advantage.

It's a bit of both for me, depending on the objectives of the race.  For example, I've got a clear target of sub-16 for the 5,000 next week. It's a well informed target based on recent 5k road time and any number of recent interval sessions covering laps of the track in anything from 70 to 84 seconds, which partly legitimises the target but also means I've got a pretty good idea what 76/77s laps feel like.  Essentially I'll run by feel to start off with and hope that feel/pace coincide, but if I get to 1k and I'm 3 or 4 seconds off, I may well decide to up the pace even if it feels slightly uncomfortable.  That would be very different from the same situation in the first league 5,000 of the season, in which case I might be more likely to trust in how I feel, not really knowing what sort of form I'm in, because playing the percentages may mean taking less risk of blowing up, in order to score points for the club, i.e. run a safe 16:30 rather than risk fading to a 16:55 (like what I did in Coventry!) and losing positions.

That being said, it's rarely an all-or-nothing target.  If I'm really struggling I'll reserve the right to ease off at any stage.  There's always the 16:19 track pb to go for, which now looks a bit soft since I've run quicker round a park in the gimp suit.  Maybe I should wear the gimp suit?

Simon Edward wrote (see)

So, if we're talking runners experienced over the distance then I'll largely agree with you. But if we're talking about YD trying to break 5 minutes, I'd say that feedback in the form of lap splits is a massive advantage.

x-post.  Yes, definitely. I ran my first 1,500m a couple of years ago (4:40) much too conservatively and finished wondering what all this fuss was about with lactic shenanigans.  I was probably capable of 4:30 on the day, which would have been a nasty experience but a quicker one.  I basically didn't know how I should feel after 1 lap, 2 laps, etc.

PhilPub wrote (see)

I basically didn't know how I should feel after 1 lap, 2 laps, etc.

I had the same thing at my first attempt at a mile a couple of months ago. I could have pushed on through lap 2 and 3 but wasn’t sure at the time that I could afford to hurt any more than I was doing. The 70 second last lap tells me I could have gone much harder earlier on.

http://www.runnerslife.co.uk/contributors/guest-articles/best-track-in-the-world

Loving the track in Oregon, not much of a problem with wind on there but leaves might be a pain.

YP, doesn't sound right to me. What was your heart rate?

A couple of examples for me:

9.25 @ 70% MHR  gave a 2.8
10.4 @ 75% MHR gave a 4.7 (that sounds a bit high actually. It wasn't a particularly difficult run)

Do you have the correct max HR stored in your device? Apparently that is used in the calculations.

Evening everyone!

YP, yeah I keep notes in my training log. Most of them are simple notes like "felt good", "felt tired", "well-paced session" and I do my race blogs on Fetch so have reference to my races too.

I have half of the thread copied into a text file, from its very start! Anything and everything useful you want from MG I probably have it somewhere 

Simon, you interested in Crammy's Camp Sandy Balls? 

I think your training looks good. Maybe you could switch days 8 and 9 around depending on if you're doing a long run or not, and if you have timne of course, but it looks quite well-rounded. If you were concerned about too much quality then probably day 10 would be the one to drop IMO, especially if you're doing short hill sessions too, you could just do some short effort reps around 800/1500 intensity.

Ratzer,thanks for the suggestions. My cousin does a fair bit of weightlifting so I might see if he can help me out with it.

prf, well done on the series win. Nice and consistant too.

The mile looks like a very tasty prospect. Wish I could scoot down and try and run a quick time too!

Josh, 2 weeks of little or no running before starting to rebuild. At the moment it looks like the chances of training with the Aberdeen group are going to be very limited, but I will probably join the club anyway and see if Joyce is happy with me training by her schedule mostly on my own, and dropping into sessions when and if I can. 

rob, you really are a machine  This might have been asked before but do you do this stuff all year round or do you do more tempo stuff over the winter?

Phil, probably extrapolate that to about 17-dead? Not bad for 10k effort.

andy the deestrider. wrote (see)

 so i wonder if its just a case of going out and hurting for a couple of efforts a week but feeling relaxed most of the time. because running seems to be getting a bit technical nowadays i think.

Agreed! Get the miles in, the tempos, some stuff around required race intensity and a bit faster than that. Race, get times, rinse and repeat.

The bad thing - for me - about fast starts is because I have a good amount of speed to burn, initially a 32, 33s 200 feels quite relaxed if I'm up for a race and something like that can mess a time attempt almost before it's gotten started! So then of course I try and relax more and end up running 40s or something  I need one of those mechanical rabbits.

Quite often I've found  the first lap of an 800 feelt quite slow yet it comes out around right, then around 500 it starts to feel hard and eventually it turns out the 400 split churned out a good race (BUCS being a good example: 64/66). 

Anyway, I haven't run a step since last Sunday but I'm planning to tomorrow morning! Just a light 3 or 4 (not at parkrun as I can't run it and get away to work in time). 

YP, how do you like the 610? I absolutely love mine.

Andy, do you believe that using technology to assist training or taking a more technical approach to training is a bad thing?

Duck, you cheeky sod agreeing. You're almost as bad as mine when it comes to planning sessions

I thought your pacing strategy was to sit behind some poor sod doing all the hard work and then use your younger legs to go past him in the home straight.

How did it feel not running since Sunday? Do you feel fresher? Despite still feeling a bit poorly and my achilles niggle I am seriously itching to get out and run.

Thanks for input. I take your point about swapping days 9 and 10, but I quite like two quality days in a row - assuming they are not mega-tough sessions, and the weekend means I have much more time to recover.

Surprised you think day 10 would be the one to drop. For me, that's an absolutely key session. Do you think it could start as unstructured strides on the road and then progress to the track later? Since the missus is getting more and more into running now I'm going to be at the track once a week anyway, so figured I may as well make use of it.

This is one for Hilly - remember when you were struggling with the concept of why you could run faster with dogs than without?

Simon Edward wrote (see)

Duck, you cheeky sod agreeing. You're almost as bad as mine when it comes to planning sessions

Guilty as charged! I do like to know in advance what I'm going to do and when, but not set the session in stone and leave some wiggle room. There was one session I planned to do (5*600 I think, and I had done an identical session the previous week) and I ended up splitting it unto 3*600 + 3*300 w/2'30 rec to make it into a multipace session. 

Simon Edward wrote (see)

I thought your pacing strategy was to sit behind some poor sod doing all the hard work and then use your younger legs to go past him in the home straight.

That poor sod happened to be a good pacer   I think in many circumstances I'm more of a racer than a 'time trialler' in that I will often go for position first then time second. It may be psychological - I find it very difficult to keep pushing if I'm on my own (and many races where I've gone for a time have resulted in that situation). There has of course been one notable race this year where it's been a race and a time trial rolled into one and we know what happened then 

Simon Edward wrote (see)

How did it feel not running since Sunday? Do you feel fresher? Despite still feeling a bit poorly and my achilles niggle I am seriously itching to get out and run.

It feels ok.... fresher, I'm not so sure. I'll have to see how tomorrow morning goes. In all honesty I'm really enjoying a bit of time where I don't have to worry about fitting in training around other stuff. I bet when I get back into training I'll wonder how I could have ever been so lackadaisical.

Simon Edward wrote (see)

Surprised you think day 10 would be the one to drop. For me, that's an absolutely key session. Do you think it could start as unstructured strides on the road and then progress to the track later? Since the missus is getting more and more into running now I'm going to be at the track once a week anyway, so figured I may as well make use of it.

Ok, let me backtrack. Not dropping it, just fitting it in elsewhere. As an example, if I were doing short hills, at the end (or at the start as part of WU) I might throw in 7-8*15s hills around 800/1500 intensity with a nice, slow walkback recovery. If I were doing hillsprints for instance, the total session might be 15*15s, but the first half of the session is essentially uphill strides and there's a 5-10 min break between the first half effort hills and the all-out sprints.

It'd still be the same intensity, just not speed. And, to be honest, the uphill running action would encourage good knee lift, arm action, and leg drive at slower speeds which would translate later on when it came to the track.

If you're going to be down at the track anyway then like you said you may as well make use of it. I'm also looking at it in terms of a mental break from the track (which was discussed breifly a week or so ago). 

Some interesting discussions going on

Can I push more people on stating their interest in a training camp?

Simon - Further to Duck's suggestion, I would probably drop it for a hilly run.  Add the strides to an easy run instead.

Can anyone help me decide on what to focus on to injury-proof myself as much as I can?  Since my 10 miler on Thursday, my right hamstring has been tender again.  However, it has improved today despite doing 8 miles am / 3 miles pm + 8*10 secs.  This suggests my hamstring is on the limit of the stress it can take and still recover.

I currently do the following to injury-proof myself: (times aprox.)
After AM run = 10 min stretching entire lower body, 3 min foam rolling
After PM run = 5 min stretching focused on hamstrings, 3 min foam rolling, 10 mins of core or leg strengthening (alternated daily)
When I can, I am also iceing my hamstring.  And I wear calf compression guards to work and to bed. 
Is there much more I can do?

Some things have happened, some people have posted stuff, and unlike robT I haven't learned so quickly how to summarise as well as YD does.  Simon complained about Duck sitting on his shoulder (don't you know what spikes are for?).

I did some fun relays on Thursday and had a great night.  Did the first 200 as part of a 100, 300, 200, 200 race, and didn't get caught by my nemesis, though we did get pipped on the line for second place.  Also did the third leg of a 4x100, in lane 1, and for the first time felt what it was like to almost fly out of the lane!  We won that one.  No times, but I felt like I flew.  It really is a wonderful feeling and well worth trying out!  It's worth the five minutes of trying to wheeze your breath back into your lungs.

I'm up for a parkrun today.  It'll be strange to see whether the speed has had a positive effect that outweighs the negative effect of little aerobic training!  I'm guessing not.

Josh, it's possible there's less that you can do.  Compression has not been proven to help in recovery.  Wearing the guards to bed is neither here nor there, you might as well do it, but if you are active in work then you are changing the load on your lower legs by wearing them, which is actually acting against your purpose of injury-proofing.
As to more, does your ten minutes of leg strengthening include specific foot strengthening exercises, proprioceptive exercises, and form specific drills?  Before harder runs do you do dynamic stretches, drills, and strides?  Do your stretching routines include sciatic nerve stretches (as it always seems your hamstring is the problem, but not anything acute)?

Josh: is it possible for you to stretch having warmed up for a couple of miles, rather than after a session, or, preferably, in addition to a session. Also, if the hamstring is really painful I would back off from the strides. I should look at Ratzer's  last paragraph, too!

Simon Edward wrote (see)

YP, how do you like the 610? I absolutely love mine.

Andy, do you believe that using technology to assist training or taking a more technical approach to training is a bad thing?

 

YP- what is the difference between the 610 and previous models like the 305. i like my 305 but apart from it being a bit quicker loading/finding satelites i`m not sure its all that different, just curious really like simon edward. Cheers.

Simon Edward- I dont really believe "taking a more technical approach" is a bad thing at all, before using the garmin for tracking the mileage i couldn`t get any consistency each week, it was laughable really, you know you need something done when the weekly mileage can be anywhere between 50-100mpw. with the garmin i`m able to follow a basic plan which is helping me do around 100mpw most weeks.

i still do most of my efforts by feel except tuesday morning interval sessions but the distance is generally planned nowadays, so every time i go out i have a ballpark figure i`d like to get so for example the tuesday night club run i`ve started to keep at around 13miles by doing basically the same route. some people i know however seem to get a bit caught up with splits and various other stats which i`m not sure make any difference to distance running training, only my opinion though.

Ratzer - What are specific foot exercises?  I do a few proprioceptive exercises, but not that many.  Before every run I do around 3 mins of drills and dynamic stretches.  All of my post-run stretches are static.  And, lastly, my work is no active (thankfully!).

Alehouse - no pain at all while running, just a little tension in the hamstring towards the end of long runs.  It did feel tender later in the day though, after the 10 miler on Thursday.

I've got a 12 miler planned for Sunday - does anyone think I should split this into two runs?

I made an enquiry for the Steve Cram camp and got send this info:
Steve Cram Training Camp costs:
Sandy Balls, New Forest: Nov 2nd - 4th 2012
£225 plus VAT per person based on twin occupancy accommodation
Double Room discount package:
Couples sharing a room as double occupancy receive a £25 discount per person
£200 plus VAT per person
Single Occupancy Supplement
NB: Subject to availability
£255 plus VAT per person
Training Camp fee includes all accommodation costs in luxury cabins on site, all meals from Friday
evening until Sunday lunch.
Please NOTE accommodation is available Sunday evening for all runners AT NO EXTRA COST, for
those wanting to extend their stay.
Complimentary sports massage throughout the weekend, subject to availability
Training advice
Steve Cram training camp memorabilia

Sandy Balls, New Forest National Park - 2nd - 4th November 2012
What to expect:
The Steve Cram Training Camps will tend to take place over the weekend. The following itinerary gives you a
good idea of what to expect:
Friday: (times approx and not confirmed)
16:00 onwards Arrival, check in and registration
16:30 Welcome and an overview of the weekend. An optional first running session
depending on time of arrival. We will break runners into relevant groups based on
level of experience and desired distance and speed. You will be matched as closely
as possible to your running ability and we will ensure that you feel comfortable at
all times in the sessions set. Running guides will lead all sessions.
19:00 Dinner
20:30 Evening Entertainment
Saturday:
07:45-08:45 Breakfast
09:45 Morning Session
11:00 Optional sports massage. Strength and Conditioning advice for distance running
12:30 Lunch
13:30 Presentation from invited guests (sports nutrition, kit advice, physiotherapy injury
prevention and rehab, Heart Rate monitors advice etc)
15:00 Afternoon running session
16:30 Relax and recover
19:00 Dinner
20:30 Evening Entertainment
Sunday:
07:45-08:45 Breakfast
09:45 Morning Session
12:30 Lunch
14:00 Wrap up and depart
Transport throughout the weekend to the start of running sessions will be organised by Steve Cram Training
Camps and is included in the cost of you weekend break. Sports Masseurs will be on hand all weekend to look
after you pre and post sessions. All such treatments will be provided complimentary.
As a duty of care Steve Cram Training Camps will issue every person who registers with a Cram-Alert
temporary wristband to wear throughout the training weekend. We request that you register the band online
prior to the camp with all your emergency contact details and any health issues that maybe of relevance.
From the moment you leave home on the Friday until you return back Sunday evening, by wearing the Cram-
Alert Sport ID, you and your family can have peace of mind that you’re health and safety is of the up most
importance.

Duck - my training is fairly consistent throughout the year main differences are longer Sunday run in winter but only a few more miles maybe upto 14-15 instead of 12-13 and when doing track reps in winter total effort may be between 6.4 and 8k (longer reps shorter recov) and summer 3.2 and 6.4k (shorter reps longer recov) ave weekly mileage spring/summer 50 miles autumn/winter 60 miles.

I am also trying to have a slightly easier week every 4-6 weeks to give body some recovery, I don't generally taper for a race other than a couple of times a year as impossible to do and keep good training base.

Hope this makes sense please ask any questions if it doesn't as it makes me think through and hopefully improve!!