The Middle Ground

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16/09/2012 at 22:38

Sorry for the self-indulgence before.

prf – stormer today, as said before massive congratulations.
You pulled away from me cruising at 5k ish today but I kept you in sight until about 7 miles but that’s when my legs started falling to pieces and you went from strength to strength. I think the course today is good but not brilliant; the first half is good but miles 8 through 12 aren’t the best when you are struggling, though you weren’t struggling today.

Stevie – excellent work on the PB after a mixed fortune year, you planning on getting on with some racing now? Or are you still in the take it day by day period with niggles etc..?

Nice little time just snuck in there Rob

Excellent work from bro today Mr V, good news that your run went well. Agreed with your ticking over plan, it will help you get back to full speed quicker when you are back to normal.

Minni – nice to meet you today, how did you get on?

Loving the picture YP

Nice improvement at York Wardi!

Oh I forgot to mention, I got my first running blister today. A big one on my big toe, I was aware of it during the run but it didn’t have an impact on the race but its sore now!

16/09/2012 at 22:58

prf & YD nice to meet you both briefly today.

prf - I'm speechless.  That it a storming time and must have got you in the top 100?  I find it really inspiring to read of such heroic performances in a race I was also in, knowing how hard it feels in places.  Many congratulations.

YD - Again, a storming time.  Congratulations on the pb and awesome 10k time.  My garmin also beeped about 20 seconds before each mile marker. I guess longer runs would help your conversion over the longer distance. 

For me, I also had a good run.  Having not got the quality of training in that I'd hoped over the summer (apart from the past month), I was hoping to get around my time from last year (1:32.40) .  Starting on the elite start certainly ensures a fast first mile 6:37 in my case, which is too fast.  From then on in I tried to run more consistently but seemed to notice the hills more this year.  My final mile was my second fastest in 6:48, which I was very happy with.  Finished 1:33.08 so just slightly slower than last year but a time I'm really pleased with.  Its a good marker from which to work.




16/09/2012 at 23:32

Excellent Minni, really well done. As for Garmins being off, I wonder if running under those bridges early on sends the scuwiffy? Just a thought.

Hilly – sorry didn’t comment before, well done on the run and it sounds like a good idea using the turbo to boost fitness while you get your legs back.

My post on the previous page got cut off!!! This is where I left off....

My quads started to tire very quickly and were getting increasingly stiff, on a few occations I tried to kick on and pick the pace up over the last 4 miles but any lift in pace wouldn’t last long and would drift again. I really pushed on as hard as I could until about half a mile to go when I then cruised in. My legs are mashed now, the worst they have ever been after a race, so no lack of effort.

I had a suspicion that my best racing distances are 5k – 10k and I probably have a decent 10 miler in me as well but something is missing for the half. Today proved that, a 17:16 5k should convert faster than 82 IMO.
My thinking in training is that I need more miles, the big boost will probably come from introducing a mid week long med long, with a slight increase here and there, weekend longs have been good. I will also practice hitting a decent pace at the end of long runs from time to time, this is something I have yet to do (tried it once last year I think). Also some race pace practice might be a good idea close to race day next time out.
Leg strength (quads were weak towards the end today) could be something to look at, hill work might help in the short term. Would be interested to hear what people think?


16/09/2012 at 23:49

Mrs YD got a decent picture of me at about 4.25miles today:


 Does that class as a both feet off the ground air shot?

Edited: 17/09/2012 at 00:03
17/09/2012 at 06:46

Wardi - nice work on the parkrun.  Agree with PRF head to Hull and you'll lose those few seconds

PRF - fantastic race for you.  You're in great shape and can now take that forward to Chester where I see another good time

YD - excellent pb and sounds like you dug in on those final miles.  A half isn't pleasant in the latter stages if the legs have decided not to play.  More to come in the future I'm sure!  As for the picture hmm close

TR - thanks for the turbo advice.  I like the sound of mixing the speed up a bit.  Can't do 1 hour yet, but will build to that.  30 mins was tough enough!  Got it positioned in the conservatory looking out the window, so hopefully won't get too bored.  I also have a treadmill in there so will be jumping off onto that to run easy or do it the other way round depending how I feel.  The aim is to try and do 1.5 hours of exercise a day.  Cheers

17/09/2012 at 08:14

YP, lovely pic!

prf and YD, excellent races.  prf, don't you think you simply went relatively faster at GNR than VLM to make up all those Vet places?  YD, well toughed out.  Trying to get back on pace after a second or two of easing up can be difficult.  200m hill sprints, that's what you want.  Can't fail with those!  

Wardi, you're there!  Just tour over to a flat-fast course and you're done.  robT, a quietly entered little time there!  Stevie, nicely done!  You are back into form!

Minni, haven't seen you in ages!  That's a great time to have and hang the rest of your training on.

Hilly, know nothing about turbo training except that it would have to face the television in my house.  You could possibly make it more like road cycling by placing it in the middle of your street, assuming your street is busy enough...

YD, I don't think you can claim that one.  I've put it under the microscope and I'm pretty sure the rear toes are still in contact.  Maybe that caused the blister??    There's also the fact that I can't see a single shred of red on your shoes.  Red laces would've done it!

17/09/2012 at 08:54

YD, those splits tell their own story, going nicely until the last few miles. Definitely sounds an unusual giving way of legs near the end. Sounds like you have the remedy in mind though with the longer midweek run, and possibly longer weekend run? Although I'm notsure what you currently do? Up to 16miles?

As for me, I like to view it day to day. Being one of those runners who feels every single slight "not perfect" feeling, I still have a bit of hip and glute/hamstring feel every day, but isn't getting worse at all no matter how hard I run. Therefore, i guess it's a cae of using the stack of stretching/strengthening each day until it eases itself out.

Definitely want a full xc season as a minimum. Probably a couple of road races before then.

17/09/2012 at 09:12

It isnt often that I get to update the WAVA score twice in a week.

It was a close call though, 1:18:45 would have given exactly the same WAVA score as last week's snuck in by 4 seconds!

Minni - Excellent result, you may also like to update the table below.

YD - Thats one to refer upstairs to the 3rd umpire!

Calculator here: 

87.54% RobT (5k 16:27, July)
84.00% PhilPub (5K, 16:15, August) 
83.19% BR (10K, 34:40, June) 
82.20% PRF (Half Marathon, 1:18:41, September) 
80.19%  Hilly (5k 20:25, June)

79.15% forever (5K, 20:41, July)
78.83% Simon (4'26.73, August)
78.02% Duck (800m, 2'09.65, August)
76.18% Ratzer (200m, 27.55, August)
75.58% YD (5k, 17:16, September)
73.58% StevieG (5k, 17:37, June)
72.88% Mr V (5K, 17:42, July)
71.21% Dr.Dan (5K, 20:04, August) 
70.10% YoungPup (5K, 19:29, June) 

68.70% Darola (5K, 20:48, July) 
66.94% Curly (5K, 22:07, June)

Out of date:

17/09/2012 at 09:40

Blimey, bit of a weekend for racing...

prf - Brilliant! Love the way your recent progressive run translates to a progressive finish half marathon! Imagine how quick you could go on a flat course with lots of better than average club runners around you. 

Minni - well done, good strong finish

Wardi - Nice parkrun.  Come and do Dulwich, we'll drag you round for a 19:40.

StevieG - superb PB.  I remember my first attempt at a sub-28 5-miler being thwarted by a hailstorm, but that's a great time.

robT - Very nice understated 10k time there! (You'll just have to smash my pb at Telford then.  )

Hilly - I think TR's got the right idea with breaking it up into sections of differing tempo, which more than anything else helps to relieve the tedium.  One exercise I like to do, to add a bit of progression, is to do something like 50 mins total, 2x 10mins strong efforts with 10 mins easy warm-up, 10 easy in the middle, 10 cool-down, then over a few sessions increase to 2x15 then 2x20mins with 5mins w/u, 10 between efforts, 5mins c/d for an hour's session.  I tend to use PE rather than heart rate, and I guess this would be like sub-threshold intervals.  I also find a big fan and some lively music rather useful!

Hang on...

17/09/2012 at 09:53

Some briliant racing this weekend

Stevie well done on breaking that - you knew it was a tough little race so always nice to get a pb even if a small one

Wardi nice effort at York! Next time the 19.xx will be yours.

YD I think considering you havent been well and have been a little light on the miles you did extremely well. I notice the same drop off in HR when the pace slackened so there must some training effect that being really fit for a race enables you to push at higher HRs for longer! A massive pb nonetheless so well done.

Minni thats some good running especially since you went off too fast! Well done and a good marker for moving onwards.

Rob modest as always well done!

PRF wow Awesome running and pacing job. And a move up the wava table too. Really good running from you. Whats the plan for Chester on the back of that then?

As for me I ran 60 miles last week as planned, including 16 miles yesterday on the thames path from Old Windsor to Dorney and back.

Cutdowns didnt quite go to plan on friday, ran the warm-up felt okay, did strides, then reps:

7:11, 6:59, 6:48, 6:37 (0.5m)

The first two were fine, third one I got caught at a crossing and forgot to restart my watch and then when I realised I started it again, but of course I have run well over one mile at this point, including up over a bridge. Take the recovery, then start the 4th rep, get about half a mile in and get caught at another crossing and just cannot get my legs moving after that. I think the third rep was about 1.4-1.5m so overall I did 4 miles at pace just not quite in way set.

Despite Hilly saying she laughs at those using garmins for sessions, I dont see how you can do mile reps that start part way through a 10 mile loop without one... the start point varies each week and I'd still have to stop a stopwatch at crossings even if I knew where each mile was.

We dont have a track within training distance that has floodlights for evening sessions (although we are working in a group to get our local one refurbished) and there arent any one mile stretches of pavement without crossings on.

I trained with just a £5 casio watch for a long time when I first started running, but for the sessions Moraghan sets you need one. Dont "need" it for easy runs or long runs but just use it to keep an electronic training diary rather than a paper one.

Off to NY on weds and looking forward to running in Central Park and racing on Saturday!




17/09/2012 at 09:55

wow - PRF!!!

Well done too to YD and Mini ... goos solid runs. YD - looks like a similar experience to my HM last week (albeit a much faster version). DO you think you'd have been faster if you'd backed off a bit more in the first half?

SG & Rob ... VERY nice racing! 

MrV ... hope you get back to normal soon.

Hilly - while injured in the winter, I used some turbo sessions from the schedules in here ... hard work!

24.3 miles for me yesterday ... had to drop the kids off at 10am, so was out in the dark at 5:50 to ensure I was back in time. These long solo efforts at the crack of dawn are something of a challenge ... doing them in the cold/dark for a spring marathon would kill me! Anyway, I started slower than planned but just let pace take care of itself. After 13.15 miles at 9:40/m, I upped the pace to 7:50/m for the next 10 miles...

8:02/m 129 bpm
7:43/m 135 bpm
7:50/m 135 bpm
7:44/m 137 bpm
7:52/m 140 bpm
7:57/m 138 bpm
7:42/m 140 bpm
7:55/m 142 bpm
7:50/m 144 bpm
7:49/m 143 bpm

... before jogging back up the hill for the final mile.

So, a 60 mile week and, gIven that Lake Vyrnwy was an afternoon race last Sunday, it brought up 75 miles within a 7 day period ... I was pleased that I still have the legs to mainatin mara race pace at the end of it.

17/09/2012 at 09:58

YD - First off, well done on the PB and the air-shot.    As ever  with the race post-mortem, I don't know what the answer is but another option I would consider for training would be to add quality to your long run.  I really do think your strong 10 milers are very useful sessions and should help get you to that sub-80 on a good day, but perhaps now you need more confidence that you've got another gear left after you've already run lots of miles.  My hardest long runs before the HM this year were 16M w/ 5 @ MP and 18M w/ 13 @ MP.  Actually the 18 miler was perhaps more than was necessary, and may have been extremely difficult to complete if I hadn't been out with half a dozen club mates training for London, but the 16 miler is definitely along the right lines - especially now you're used to covering that sort of mileage at an easy pace.  Maybe schedule something like 3 or 4 LRs over six weeks to be hard efforts like this.

Good volume training for me this weekend.  Managed around 50 miles on the bike Saturday morning spread over the track and road, and 18.3M @ 7:20 / HR 64%yesterday. Hadn't planned on running any particular pace but someone fancied a loosener towards the end so it included 2.5M @ 6:18.  Think I'll be aiming to fit in a couple more LRs with quality as above before GER.

I'm flying off to Ibiza tomorrow afternoon, so should be time for 10M w/ 7M tempo in the morning.  Getting a hire bike delivered to the hotel for 10am Wednesday - must remember to pack my pedals! 

Edited: 17/09/2012 at 10:00
17/09/2012 at 10:00

Stevie G - Great 5 mile PB  to start off weekend racing for everyone

Mr V - Better than last outing but still feel lacking something in races and no ease down in training doesn't help

YD -  Unlucky with the quad issue last 3 miles looked tough but well done for battling on sub 80 no prob soon

PRF  - Great GNR time well done enjoyed race report

Wardi - £10 prize for 5th!! unlucky on just missing sub 20

Philpub - 33.20 feels a long way off but I have got 3 months and will actually taper for Telford!!

17/09/2012 at 10:19

YD, further along PP's post, a session before a half marathon that leaves me in no uncertain terms that Im in shape is a 14miler with 8miles easy to steady, then 3miles MP and 3miles HMP.

Definitely one for the week or 2 before a target half after a decent build up, that would also include a bigger long run than normal, perhaps simply an 18mile easy.

First time I did that 14 with the quality end, i averaged 5.57 for the last 3miles, and then ran the half the next weekend at average pace 5.57, so something added up really well.

A variation is 4miles MP, then 2miles HMP.

17/09/2012 at 11:03

Had that picture been taken 0.1 second further on it would have been an air shot no doubt!

Stevie wrote the stuff bellow before your 2nd post, thanks for the session suggestion.......
...............long run has been decent, with one 21 miler, a tough 18 miler, some 14, 15 and 16s in the build up recently. Though, training has been inconsistent all year, so maybe I need to back up the decent last month with another or two before I can expect to nail a half, running a decent 5 or 10k of inconsistent training is one thing a half is another….
Get some races in man, you have just proven you are in PB shape, you should be chomping at the bit to get some more decent times on the board!

Ratzer – yep, getting back on pace is tough I agree. Had mile 9 been a continuation of the same flat road I am sure I wouldn’t have slowed down at all, I would have slowed later on but the damage had been done with the slow hill section.
Winking aside, I agree it will be a good idea to throw in a few 10x200m Hills to toughen my pins up.

Dr Dan – I have a feeling had I ran even 6:10s in the first half I would have probably run 30 seconds or so faster overall, I will hopefully test the theory in a couple of weeks.
Excellent run yesterday, excellent weekly mileage, adding in the quality at the end will be a big boost I recon. What’s the plan for Chester, treat it as a long run with a number or are you going to race it to a target based on where you think you are at the moment?

Curly don’t stress it, it was still a decent session with loads of fitness benefit even if you couldn’t complete it as designed. Enjoy New York and the mile race

Phil – thanks for the tips on long runs, I think you are right working on that extra gear at the end of long races is needed. I will make an note of those sessions and will use them. I was also thinking of getting into the habit of taking a couple of my progressive 10 milers up to 14 miles with a less aggressive pace progression. Same thing you are suggesting really.
Excellent training this weekend and enjoy Ibiza!

Cheers Rob, hope so

Yesterday has been a good learning experience, legs are stiff today but not as bad as I feared last night. I have decided to get back on the half mara horse and try to get the pacing right. Lancaster half on the 4th November is looking like a good option and I might have a crack (family permitting) at Redcar in two weeks. Its flatter than the GNR so even splits might be more doable, setting off at a more cautious 6:10 – 6:15/mi might be sensible.

Edited: 17/09/2012 at 11:04
17/09/2012 at 12:25

YD – I think you should pleased with that. Shows that sub 80 is pretty close. I think you’ll crack that and beyond before long. The legs seem to have been your issue in the past as well for the longer races. Not sure what to suggest except not to rush into doing a marathon!

PRF – Brilliant run, you must be chuffed. I think the GNR is actually quite good for fast times so not sure why club runners pass it over – certainly the crowding problems don’t worry those towards the front. I suppose the entry fee and logistics if you don’t live close by might be the reason?

Wardi – Nice continued progress from you. That sub 20 can’t be long in coming. Those extra few metres at York seemed to cost you

Minni – Well done. It won’t be long before you are back to PB shape by the sounds of it.

Dan – Nice long run! You’ll be glad of that at 20 miles into Chester

17/09/2012 at 13:40
Mr Viper wrote (see)
Not sure what to suggest except not to rush into doing a marathon!

Amen to that brother!!!!

Yep legs going seems to be the issue I have had in all three of my half marathons, interestingly it was not an issue in either of the 10 milers I have run, and its never an issue over 10k in fact I always feel strong towards the end of a 10k. Half is certainly a different beast.

How are you feeling today, do you have much of an appetite to run again?

17/09/2012 at 13:50

YD - if your legs are suffering in a HM do you think it may be an energy issue and maybe some fueling in race might help! I know normally most runners wouldn't really think about taking anything on board in a HM but it might just be your effectively using your energy sources a bit quicker than the norm and it might help! Anyway thought for the Day

17/09/2012 at 14:19

Curly - I wouldnt worry too much about getting reps off to an exact distance, approximations are good enough to get the training benefit, which is what the aim is.

Chester? Plans? Theres no chance that I'm making predictions for a marathon based on a half marathon going well.....EVER!

Enjoy NY and hit that mile hard.

Dr Dan - 5:50am! You obviously fancied a lie in yesterday then? I'd already had my first run of the day and was sat down to coffee and croissants by the time you got your lazy arse out of the door.

Good effort btw at 3 weeks out.

Phil - Enjoy the training in sunnier climes.

YD - You're over complicating things, 2 more pints of Boddingtons is what was needed. Obviously!

Mr V - Nail on head there. Far too expensive for what is no better than loads of other half marathon courses.

This week's training.

17/09/2012 at 14:29

YD – The head says yes and the body says no! I will be running again tonight but my legs feel fairly mashed – almost as though they raced the GNR yesterday...

Hilly – Did you say you had entered the Snake Lane 10? I just entered last night so like you should have plenty of time to get fit! I’ve always fancied doing it but never entered in time before. Anyone else doing this one?

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