The Middle Ground

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18/09/2012 at 19:52

Simon - that's some weight gain in 15 days!  I've gained that over 5 years as a gradual creep up, but yours seems to be intentional so should be easier to lose!

Good to see a number of threaders doing Snake Lane.  I really hope to get fit by then, but at present it feels a long way off.  I have to say this is the worst injury I've had in 6 years and although I can now jog okay for a few miles I cannot put any effort in and to tell the truth the legs feel there is no energy to allow a faster pace.  I still have the feeling I had when suffering the strange virus back in July.  I keep telling myself to be positive and it will all be right eventually, but it's bl**dy hard at times when you're as obsessive as me!  Anyhow 2 runs today, this morning was 3 miles slow on the treadmill and no problems, this afternoon was 4.5 miles on trail where I tried a few hill bounds as I seem to cope better with up hill than flat or down.  The leg ached a lot afterwards, but has eased off again now.  Strangely when I walk I feel nothing and in work up and down stairs the same, but running is a different matter.  I'm getting there slowly though, so I'll keep on keeping on until I'm out there fighting fit again

robT - yes we know Gavin quite well.  A very good runner and very motivated - ex army I believe

18/09/2012 at 19:53

The other third of the 20 parkrun triumverate is not reporting such success as PRF and Simon.  Just doing a few miles here and there.  For me, it was the equivalent of racing a marathon.

YD - good effort at GNR.  I notice your HR rose in the middle miles and then dropped towards the end.  You were evidently trying to keep on sub 80 pace then faded.  I used to find I could maintain 183-185bpm over the HM compared to 175-180 for the marathon.  A fine effort and maybe better returns at Redcar on a different course.

Hadd (RIP) said the following ranges applied for the well trained runner.

Marathon - 87% MHR
HM - 92-93% MHR
10k - 95% MHR

Those fitted in my best races.

Rob - indeed I do know Mr Felton.  A fine runner and very popular leader at his club.

Phil - enjoy holiday

Simon - reminds me of the film `Supersize me'.  Have you been listening to The Fall c.1978 (Eat Yourself Fitter)?

MrV - healing vibes.

PRF - McDonalds start a Flake McFlurry tomorrow.  Btw, your HM pace of ~6m/m would nicely reduce to a 5k pace of 5:30 (17:00) and as I think 5k is a stronger suit for you, I predict that sub 17 at a Yorkshire seaport in the next few weeks.

Wardi - edging closer to sub 20

Snake Lane - for me the best value for money race in the world.  Until this year it cost £8 to enter, is perfectly organised, a fast course and a prize list as long as your arm.  It's my pb course too.

Leeds Abbey Dash.  Yes please.  My father preached on the steps of Leeds Town Hall in 1940 during an impromptu evangelical meeting.  Come to think of it he did firewatching in Hyde Park (parkrun course) and was based for RAMC training at Beckett Park (magic mile venue) so it's nice of race organisers to set races up for me at these places.

DrD - my Chester plan now involves keeping a clubmate company as he gets his GFA time (sub 3:10).

18/09/2012 at 19:58

My Chester plan is to give you all a cheery shout as you finish

18/09/2012 at 20:19

Hilly - what injury problem do you have and what exercises and stretches are you doing to try and get over it?

Duck - just how much 'quality' do you plan to during the base phase?  I would have thought that you would spend at least 2 months banging out the miles with strides at the end, rather than cruise/tempo paces so early on

Simon - do you know yet if you are going to Sandy Balls?

18/09/2012 at 20:44

Simon, interesting before and after stats. Quite interesting to see how resting HR rises when you're not 100% fit. And 60s/mile slower for the same HR after just that length of time!?

YD, from what I can remember from my HR stats is that I couldn't hold those percentages over those distances. I think my 5k avg HR was about 93%, 10k about 90% and HM 85%. Is that due to being more shorter distance biased I wonder?

Hilly, good to see you're getting some training done.

Josh, bear in mind I'm going to be running 400 & 800 this year so a traditional base doesn't necessarily apply to me - pure base miles won't have as much benefit (they'll improve the ST fibres which play only a small role at the end of a 400) and I need to keep in touch with the higher intensity stuff earlier on, otherwise I will be playing serious catchup.

The base fitness for these kinds of distances is somewhat different to a road runner. For example a session like 8*400 w/2'30 rec in base for a 400m runner would be quite reasonable, yet it might be a peaking workout for a 5k runner. 

I need to keep in touch with 1500/3kp quite early on for the reasons mentioned above - 200/200j is a session I love, and reps @ 3kp w/half distance jog recoveries will both extend the base (although not as much as weeks and weeks of mileage, but as I mentioned base fitness is different when you get below around the 1k mark). 4/8 training will combine both a sprint and MD approach so there will be SOME miles but no more than ~30-35mpw.

 

Edited: 18/09/2012 at 20:51
18/09/2012 at 21:05
Track for me tonight in awful conditions wind, rain and ferocious hail storm
5x800m (90 sec recov) came out
2.31,2.31,2.29,2.28,2.28 got recov wrong after 3rd rep only had 75 secs
Pleased with session
18/09/2012 at 21:12

Ratzer - One day a week of carb depletion may be worth an experiment, although we're not talking about fasting just about eating other stuff other than carbs.

RobT - I noticed that we'd all been shuffled down a place in the mile rankings!

YD - You certainly wouldnt get many coaches recommending 20 parkruns to bring you to a peak but I've done 3 of these multiple parkrun events now and got a decent fitness boost shortly afterwards on each occassion.

This time around, in the last 3 weeks since we did the tour, there have been 5 races which have produced comeback PBs at 6 different distances - 1 Mile, 3000m, 5K, 5 Miles (during GNR), 10 Miles (during GNR) and HM.......not a bad haul in 3 weeks when the first week was spent recovering.

But, as BR says, if the intensity is too high it becomes more like a full out marathon effort rather than a strong training effort.

Duck - Nice scoping session to get you back in the groove.

Simon - 5 kilos represents some serious troughing!

YD - Interesting HR stats. It would be good to see the comparison when you get a HM done with a deliberately conservative start.

BR - In hindsight, the chances are that you went into the 20 parkruns probably already needing to have some downtime which is why it became the equivalent of a marathon effort, espcially doing 31miles @ 6:20/mile or whatever it was on the first day.

On the McFlurry front, can you believe it was 5 hours after the race on Sunday before I got one.....what is the world coming to?

10.0 Miles @ 8:36/mile this evening....everything seems in working order so will probably try and get an 18 miler in tomorrow. And on that basis I'm unlikely to be much competition for you at Ron Hill's bash, BR!

Edited: 18/09/2012 at 21:17
18/09/2012 at 21:28
Org- looks like someone ran a 4.55 on 8 sept but still no one within 8 secs of my time from last year in 2012 which I find very surprising but shouldn't complain
18/09/2012 at 21:30
Evening all,

Interesting conversation re heart rates for different distances. Will be interesting for me to do some races with my HRM on....

I did 10 miles today, with 5m tempo (avg pace of 06:55). My original plan was to do 6 miles, but I also did a short, quick ish 3 miles yesterday @ 07:30/mile, plus the 16 miles on Sunday were still in my legs, so decided 5 was plenty.....

YP
18/09/2012 at 21:40

Sorry last post should have said PRF not Org

 

18/09/2012 at 21:54

Rubbish typing Rob T, nice session though!

BR/Hilly.. sorry to hear you are both struggling.

I note from the York Parkrun results that I was beaten by a splendidly named chap called 'Cones Malone'.  With a name like that I assume he belongs to the local ice cream mafia.

25m bike commute today then 10k with the club.

18/09/2012 at 22:23

Love it Wardi!

Glad you are back on the Muesli Simon

Nice reps Rob, you are an Abbey Dasher this year aren’t you?

Good to see you both ticking over BR and Hilly. Hopefully running Chester steady can be a decent springboard for you BR.

prf – yes, the difference in yours and BRs two days at the parkrun challenge is certainly plain to see as is the aftermath.
Good work on the mileage, my legs were very stiff this morning, so no run yet for me, how did your legs feel? Any stiffness the day after or today?

A useful session YP.

Duck –
quite possibly it is because of your short distance bias, BR at the other end of the MG HR scale being the opposite having a natural longer distance bias.

Duck, BR, Dr Dan and Simon – thanks all for the HR feedback. You all confirmed what I already thought. That BR can run a higher HR than most of us for longer (kudos sir) and that I wasn’t too far from the right ballpark on Sunday, I just shot my load a bit early!
So major changes not needed to my approach, however, as prf has alluded to, I plan on running the Redcar Half a week on Sunday with a cautious start. The data from that should hopefully help me put it all together to nail a fast one at the Lancaster Half on the 4th Nov. I have a few different training ideas to throw in the pot in the meantime. Both races have been entered now, so no going back

Edited: 18/09/2012 at 22:24
18/09/2012 at 22:35

Whoa YD, love the half marathon focus, already planning 2 more races in the next 6 weeks! I'm sure you'll hit what you deserve over the 2.

18/09/2012 at 22:36

No point fannying around Stevie, I am in decent shape I just need to nail one to prove it

September
20th  -  Ron Hill's Birthday 5K - PRF
22nd - 5th Avenue Mile Race - Curly
22nd Northern Relays - RobT
23rd - Spen Greenway 10K - PRF?
23rd - "Kirkstall 7" (trail) - Dr.Dan
29th - Self Transcendence 10k - YoungPup
29th - Page Cup (5m XC) - Curly
29th - Lancaster 5k ? - RobT
30th - Bristol HM – Ratzer
30th -  Redcar HM - YD

October
6th Halewood 5k ? - RobT
7th - Chester Marathon - Dr.Dan, Hilly, BR, PRF
14th - Great Eastern Run HM - PhilPub
14th - Cardiff HM - Ratzer
14th - Flintshire 10k ? - RobT
21st - Cabbage Patch 10 - YoungPup, BR, Hilly, PRF, Simon, Curly, Ratzer?, PhilPub
27th - Mob Match Orion Harriers Vs Ranelagh (7.5m XC) - Curly
27th Oct – Whitby NYSD XC - YD
28th Oct – Yorkshire Coast 10k Scarborough - MrV

November
4th  -  Lancaster HM - YD
11th - Town Moor 10k - MrV
18th - Leeds Abbey Dash - Dr.Dan, Hilly, BR, MrV, YD
18th - Winter Ballbuster Duathlon - PhilPub
18th - Gosport Half - Curly, YoungPup
18th - Preston 10 miler ? - RobT
24th - South of the Thames 5m XC Champs - Curly, PhilPub
24th - Norman Woodcock Memorial 5M - MrV

December
1st - Surrey Womens XC League 1 (6k) - Curly
8th - Dysart Cup (4k) - Curly possible
8th - Kent Count Vets XC - PhilPub
16th - Telford 10k - RobT (Main Target)
22nd - Mob Match Ranelagh Vs SLH (7.5m XC) - Curly
29th - Henty Relay (1.5m legs) - Curly

January 2013
5th - Kent County Champs XC - PhilPub

February 2013
16th - Race Your Pace Half - YoungPup

March 2013
3rd - Surrey Spitfire 20 - YoungPup
9th - Dambuster Duathlon (GB Champs) - PhilPub

April 2013
14th - Brighton Marathon - Curly
21st - VLM - Ratzer, PhilPub

May 2013
6th - Milton Keynes Marathon - YoungPup

April 2014
Boston Marathon - prf/Hilly/BR

Edited: 18/09/2012 at 22:41
18/09/2012 at 22:42

Exactly YD, a quick chance to have another go might be just what the doc ordered.

Edited: 18/09/2012 at 23:04
19/09/2012 at 06:30

Josh - there is no particular  name for my injury, it's just in the calf/soleus area.  Lumps and bumps all over it suggesting there has been some small tears.  Anyhow I'm doing lots of massage and few stretches at present as the stretching makes it worse.  I'm only running on the treadmill now too for a while as it can cope with that surface but doesn't like running on outdoor surfaces.  It's far from over, but I am managing it better than I was.

Nice session robT and YP.  Good see you straignt back into it PRF after your excellent half.

Just taken myself off Chester Marathon

September
20th  -  Ron Hill's Birthday 5K - PRF, BR
22nd - 5th Avenue Mile Race - Curly
22nd Northern Relays - RobT, BR, PRF
23rd - Spen Greenway 10K - PRF?
23rd - "Kirkstall 7" (trail) - Dr.Dan
29th - Self Transcendence 10k - YoungPup
29th - Page Cup (5m XC) - Curly
29th - Lancaster 5k ? - RobT
30th - Bristol HM – Ratzer
30th -  Redcar HM - YD

October
6th Halewood 5k ? - RobT
7th - Chester Marathon - Dr.Dan, BR, PRF
14th - Great Eastern Run HM - PhilPub
14th - Cardiff HM - Ratzer
14th - Flintshire 10k ? - RobT
21st - Cabbage Patch 10 - YoungPup, BR, Hilly?, PRF, Simon, Curly, Ratzer?, PhilPub
27th - Mob Match Orion Harriers Vs Ranelagh (7.5m XC) - Curly
27th Oct – Whitby NYSD XC - YD
28th Oct – Yorkshire Coast 10k Scarborough - MrV

November
4th  -  Lancaster HM - YD
11th - Town Moor 10k - MrV
18th - Leeds Abbey Dash - Dr.Dan, Hilly, BR, MrV, YD
18th - Winter Ballbuster Duathlon - PhilPub
18th - Gosport Half - Curly, YoungPup
18th - Preston 10 miler ? - RobT
24th - South of the Thames 5m XC Champs - Curly, PhilPub
24th - Norman Woodcock Memorial 5M - MrV

December
1st - Surrey Womens XC League 1 (6k) - Curly
8th - Dysart Cup (4k) - Curly possible
8th - Kent Count Vets XC - PhilPub
16th - Telford 10k - RobT (Main Target)
22nd - Mob Match Ranelagh Vs SLH (7.5m XC) - Curly
29th - Henty Relay (1.5m legs) - Curly

January 2013
5th - Kent County Champs XC - PhilPub

February 2013
16th - Race Your Pace Half - YoungPup

March 2013
3rd - Surrey Spitfire 20 - YoungPup
9th - Dambuster Duathlon (GB Champs) - PhilPub

April 2013
14th - Brighton Marathon - Curly
21st - VLM - Ratzer, PhilPub

May 2013
6th - Milton Keynes Marathon - YoungPup

April 2014
Boston Marathon - prf/Hilly/BR

19/09/2012 at 08:22

Morning.  Nice commitment, YD, it's great to see you backing yourself with those races, and even if they're slightly off the pace it'll be great for your marathon training to get in 13 miles HMP twice.   Don't forget that a raced Half does take the best part of a couple of weeks to fully recover from, so Redcar may be a little soon to go all out.

Simon, I think you need to join the one day a week carb depletion experiment.  Now, prf, which day?  Given a normal training week, not a taper, I would argue that it shouldn't be on quality days, nor on long run day if you want to get your recovery McFlurry in.  Any other regular mileage, easy miles day would be a candidate though.  A rest day would also be a good day for it, though depending upon what follows - followed by a reasonable long it would be perfect for training adaptations.  Hmm... *checks mental schedule*

6x200 last night, off unlimited recovery.  Now, as said yesterday, the thing about unlimited recovery with sprinters is that you go hard for each rep.  It's just a mental thing.  So we had one guy sit out the fifth and one girl finish after five.  Everyone collapsed after the last (except the guy who sat out the fifth).  Madness, and we only did 1200m of training!  I didn't feel as quick last night as I have previously.  I think the miles I've inserted into the rest of the week are starting to affect the ability to hit sprint paces.  Slight tiredness, slightly different focus.  So I've probably peaked for base speed, and any quality efforts at the short distances now are about form.  With what I've done in the last couple of weeks though I do reckon that sub-19 is another few steps closer!  Another week maybe.

19/09/2012 at 08:24

Just adding Cabbage Patch, Abbey Dash and Snake Lane.

RobT - I quite like org!

 

September
20th  -  Ron Hill's Birthday 5K - PRF, BR
22nd - 5th Avenue Mile Race - Curly
22nd Northern Relays - RobT, BR, PRF
23rd - Spen Greenway 10K - PRF?
23rd - "Kirkstall 7" (trail) - Dr.Dan
29th - Self Transcendence 10k - YoungPup
29th - Page Cup (5m XC) - Curly
29th - Lancaster 5k ? - RobT
30th - Bristol HM – Ratzer
30th -  Redcar HM - YD

October
6th Halewood 5k ? - RobT
7th - Chester Marathon - Dr.Dan, BR, PRF
14th - Great Eastern Run HM - PhilPub
14th - Cardiff HM - Ratzer
14th - Flintshire 10k ? - RobT
21st - Cabbage Patch 10 - YoungPup, BR, Hilly?, PRF, Simon, Curly, Ratzer?, PhilPub
27th - Mob Match Orion Harriers Vs Ranelagh (7.5m XC) - Curly
27th Oct – Whitby NYSD XC - YD
28th Oct – Yorkshire Coast 10k Scarborough - MrV

November
4th  -  Lancaster HM - YD
11th - Town Moor 10k - MrV
18th - Leeds Abbey Dash - Dr.Dan, Hilly, BR, MrV, YD, PRF
18th - Winter Ballbuster Duathlon - PhilPub
18th - Gosport Half - Curly, YoungPup
18th - Preston 10 miler ? - RobT
24th - South of the Thames 5m XC Champs - Curly, PhilPub
24th - Norman Woodcock Memorial 5M - MrV

December
1st - Surrey Womens XC League 1 (6k) - Curly
8th - Dysart Cup (4k) - Curly possible
8th - Kent Count Vets XC - PhilPub
16th - Telford 10k - RobT (Main Target)
22nd - Mob Match Ranelagh Vs SLH (7.5m XC) - Curly
29th - Henty Relay (1.5m legs) - Curly

January 2013
5th - Kent County Champs XC - PhilPub

February 2013
16th - Race Your Pace Half - YoungPup
24th - Snake Lane 10 - PRF

March 2013
3rd - Surrey Spitfire 20 - YoungPup
9th - Dambuster Duathlon (GB Champs) - PhilPub

April 2013
14th - Brighton Marathon - Curly
21st - VLM - Ratzer, PhilPub

May 2013
6th - Milton Keynes Marathon - YoungPup

April 2014
Boston Marathon - prf/Hilly/BR

19/09/2012 at 08:41

YD - Not 100% sure about Leeds Abbey Dash it's a 2 hour drive and I'm feeling anxious about starting in Pens as I like to be near the front and I'm concerned I might get too hyped up being surrounded by runners who overestimate their ability!! I am a running snob and think I should be on the front I worry I might punch someone who gets in my way sad I know but I am having counseling  I think Telford is a better main target! Thinking of doing Preston 10 miler on the same day as Leeds will decide by middle of next month!

19/09/2012 at 09:05

Josh, I will know about Sandy Balls by Monday.

BR, just listened to it while eating my muesli. Triumverate? I think you should make Word of the Day a regular thing.

Duck, I'm sure that the weight gain and general bad diet (including alcohol) is mainly to blame. I'll be taking regular measurements to see how long it takes me to get fitness back. However, I was peaking before my break so I should'nt expect to match previous performances in base (at least not early in base)

Ratzer, is it cos I am fat? I don't think I could handle a carb depletion day very well. In the past when I have tried to lose weight quickly I have really lacked energy: not good when building strength will be one of my main goals this winter.
I always marvel at how short 200 is for the first rep and how far it is for the last.

Duck, Ratzer, during my coming base phase I am clear on how to improve aerobic fitness and strength. I'm also clear on the importance of getting in race-pace and making my session progressive. My main concern is improving speed. Basic, pure speed. Any suggestions?


What a lovely day for running: sunny and cool. I will have to start getting morning runs in again.

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