The Middle Ground

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25/09/2012 at 14:14

 ... you two do realise that a US mile is shorter than a UK mile!

Welcome back.

Recovery is looking good MrV. ... I think I call something around 78% maxHR a steady run but I don't know oif that''s correct (my MP trainign pace is around 83-84%).

25/09/2012 at 14:32

Simon – I reckon so, though I didn’t expect to feel better so quickly. I think a faster run will be the acid test though. I’m already finding no more stomach issues/ cramps during runs so that in itself is a massive bonus.

Curly – You must be well chuffed to be 70% wava plus again. All you recent hard work paying off.

25/09/2012 at 18:03

Hilly, never commented on the 20. Nice going!

Kelly, asthma is a dreadful thing. I remember when I had it when I was younger, I would hate to get it again now so well done for getting through it.

YP, 4 step breathing? I tried that for a bit and found it to be too deep a breathing pattern to use. I use 3-3 for MP, borderline 3-3/2-2 for threshold and 2-2 (2-1 for MD) for racing. Finishing sprint is 1-1!

Dan, looking good! If you're almost 90s quicker than when you went sub-40 then it's got to be on the cards.

Stevie, how dare you use me as an example. I would like to think the flat 400 speed will mean I can be ok at long distance later in life. Josh I think you should get indoors over the winter and run a few 800s to see what you can do.

Ratzer, interesting colour on the spikes! Saucony's spring range is looking quite tasty on the track side of things. 

Mr V, yeah I'd take steady a good 20-30 sec/m slower than MP.

Curly & Rob, great times, the race sounded like it was a great location and fun too!

Did anyone see the foam all o'er the shop at Aberdeen today? That's the parkrun's start they were showing! Would make things interesting Saturday mornings.

Still knuckling down with training here. 4M w/strides yesterday and 2*7*100 uphill today (jog back rec & 2'00 rec between sets). Tough aerobically but also good for leg strength - legs were tired at the end but no lactic acid at all. 


25/09/2012 at 19:48

Alehouse - I don't think I would be ready for 5 or so years until I could self-coach to a high standard

Duck - any particular reason why you suggest that?

Can anyone please help me out with pairing a Garmin HRM?  My old one is getting inaccuarte and I cannot get my new one to pair.  It was suggested to go on Youtube, but I could not find a video for my version (forerunner 210) and the instructions available for a different model did not work.  I have tried looking at the instruction manual, but it does not tell me anything I am not already doing!

25/09/2012 at 20:29
Josh Blatchford wrote (see)

Duck - any particular reason why you suggest that?

Well, why not? I thought I was a run of the mill long distance runner until I tried out an indoor 800, and what followed.... The point being you never know what you're good at until you've tried the alternatives.

I could be sitting here, grinding out the HMs and the 10ks, but by going out of my comfort zone, trying something new and getting thoroughly whipped at the distance for 6 months I'm a totally different runner than I was a year ago.

Running distances like 400s, 800s, 1500s will all go back into the mixing pot which will increase the speed endurance which will increase the potential to run better long distance times. It's of no surprise to me that robt was a great MD runner in his youth and is now heavily reaping the rewards later in life. 

26/09/2012 at 08:33

Morning all,

He might well have said that, Simon.  Gotta admit, I wasn't sure about the green either, MrV, but it's not my feet that look like they're soaked in vomit.  At least not before the sessions.  Duck, for me it'd be the Endorphin in blue and silver.  A bit more than the £5 I spent on my Nikes.

Nice mile, Curly, but a road mile?  Was it four sets of lights?  Do they even have a road mile on the WAVA?  (I'm just getting at you for being over there!)

And that brings me round nicely to a session of 'Americanos' last night.  I'm guessing they're called that because they're diluted Espressos.  Two sets, of six laps, of fast 100, shuffle 100, with 5 minutes between sets.  Fast was about 90%, maybe a gnat's eyelash more.  Of course I didn't realise we were doing two sets until I finished the first one.  Still managed to lap most of the field in the second one and it wasn't because I was slowing the sprints and speeding up the jogs.  I'd put it down to most of the group having had two weeks off and me not.  So, it appears that's a standard entry session into Winter season training for sprinters.  I like it!  I might stick with two sprint sessions at this rate.  The MD sessions look boring.  Stuff like 5x800m @80% with minimal recovery.  We'll see.

Oh, and 35mins on the treadie this am while Girl Ratzer swam almost as far, almost as fast.  Home to another day of eating too much.  Oh, spotted another lovely oxymoron, "barefoot running shoes".  Beat that!  (Start all oxymoron competition entries with the words "Sorry, but ...")

26/09/2012 at 08:47

Winter training for my sprint group starts on Sunday.We've had a month off and were given - as always - strict instructions NOT to set foot on a track  for at least two weeks and do very little in that time.

'You needn't bother bringing your spikes,' was almost the last thing our coach said four weeks ago.

What's the betting the first session back is something hideous like three laps of the grassy, hilly, pebbly track perimeter - approx 600 metres.

Perhaps I will sddenly have to go to London and high jump instead.

This may post twice. Sorry if it does.


26/09/2012 at 08:56

Winter fare generally consists of three main sessions a week:

Long reps on grass - usually football field and/or track perimeter
Sprint hills (fast and short compared to distance runners' hill reps)
Lots of speed endurance reps, sometimes on the track, but much shorter recoveries than the rest of the year and run slower - although still sprinted sometimes.

Every so often the 'true' sprinters amongst us (100-200m specialists) will have a session to keep us in touch with our base speed.

Sessions are tailored for individuals of course  - coach is a firm believer that one size doesn't fit all.





26/09/2012 at 09:00

How can you have a hilly track perimeter, Sharkie?  Have you got one of these...?


26/09/2012 at 09:18

I'm not being daft. I'm probably using the wrong words as is my wont. Track is set in a grassy basin down about thirty concrete steps. Sides of the basin are quite steep and uneven. Difficult to describe but like running a truncated XC course for the likes of me.

Diagram of middling degree of hideousness reps last December.....

 Have completely forgotten what coloured lines mean besides the route taken.

Edited: 26/09/2012 at 09:27
26/09/2012 at 11:22

The most x-country you could get at my track is playing dodge the heavy/sharp thrown object on the nicely manicured football pitch in the middle.  Once, a long time ago, I used to jog around a track in Welwyn Garden City that I seem to recall had a velodrome around it.  Whether it did or I was just running around the velodrome instead, that was fun for a bit of hilly variation.

Not got the schedule yet, so I don't know what's involved.  I do know there's a Sunday long run that starts at 30mins this Sunday but does get longer, and a Monday night gym session.

Right, missed my entry into the two local HMs because I dawdled too long and now they're closed.  Not particularly worried about the Bristol one but I should really have tried sooner with the Cardiff one.  So instead I've entered the Cabbage Patch 10, and will be x-countrying early Oct.  Plus due a time trial on a parkrun early Oct, and saddened by the fact that they did time us incorrectly the last time I ran, so I'm further off 19 than I thought.

29th - Self Transcendence 10k - YoungPup
29th - Page Cup (5m XC) - Curly
29th - Lancaster 5k ? - RobT
30th - Redcar HM - YD

6th Halewood 5k ? - RobT
7th - Chester Marathon - Dr.Dan, BR, PRF
7th - GLCL XC - Ratzer
13th - East District XC Relays - Duck
14th - Great Eastern Run HM - PhilPub
14th - Flintshire 10k ? - RobT
21st - Cabbage Patch 10 - YoungPup, BR, Hilly?, PRF, Simon, Curly, Ratzer, PhilPub
27th - Mob Match Orion Harriers Vs Ranelagh (7.5m XC) - Curly
27th Oct – Whitby NYSD XC - YD
28th Oct – Yorkshire Coast 10k Scarborough - MrV

4th  -  Lancaster HM - YD
11th - Town Moor 10k - MrV
18th - Leeds Abbey Dash - Dr.Dan, Hilly, BR, MrV, YD, PRF
18th - Winter Ballbuster Duathlon - PhilPub
18th - Gosport Half - Curly, YoungPup
18th - Preston 10 miler ? - RobT
24th - South of the Thames 5m XC Champs - Curly, PhilPub
24th - Norman Woodcock Memorial 5M - MrV

1st - Surrey Womens XC League 1 (6k) - Curly
8th - Dysart Cup (4k) - Curly possible
8th - Kent Count Vets XC - PhilPub
16th - Telford 10k - RobT (Main Target)
22nd - Mob Match Ranelagh Vs SLH (7.5m XC) - Curly
29th - Henty Relay (1.5m legs) - Curly

January 2013
5th - Kent County Champs XC - PhilPub
20th Jan - 4 Villages HM - Dr.Dan

February 2013
16th - Race Your Pace Half - YoungPup
24th - Snake Lane 10 - PRF, Dr.Dan

March 2013
3rd - Surrey Spitfire 20 - YoungPup
9th - Dambuster Duathlon (GB Champs) - PhilPub
24th March - Bradford 10K - Dr.Dan

April 2013
14th - Brighton Marathon - Curly
21st - VLM - Ratzer, PhilPub

May 2013
6th - Milton Keynes Marathon - YoungPup
12th - Leeds Half Marathon - Dr.Dan

April 2014 
Boston Marathon - prf/Hilly/BR

26/09/2012 at 11:24

Hola! Just got back from Ibiza at 1.30 this morning with a fuzzy head and possible ear infection, so lots of the usual post-holiday blues/angst to look forward to.  Sorry I've not had time to fully digest the last week's musings, although I see Ratzer has written an interactive version of The Lore of Running pt. II, so that's gonna be worth a gander, Curly ran a much quicker mile on holiday than I managed, and it's great to see Kelly back in high spirits and racing again. 

The training log from CampIbiza includes lots of cycling and not much running, mainly cos beautiful scenery but 28 degrees is a lot more fun on two wheels.  Plus my dodgy ear kept me up all night just before I was going to have my last run.  So just 15 miles of running but 260 miles on the bike (72, 75, 61, 52) - all rather hilly as well.  Stunning.  I did manage to eat and drink for England, although I didn't actually see the inside of a club.  (The demographic of the Ryan Air flight from Stansted may have put me off a bit.)

Bit of a shame this clashed with the Southern 6-stage relays. Really chuffed for my club mates winning, not that I would've got a look-in on the A team, but I can imagine the post-race drinks at Waterloo afterwards would've been good. We'll go for the Vets' race next year as well. 

Edited: 26/09/2012 at 11:27
26/09/2012 at 11:40

Ratzer - Coach and the younger lads do gym weights twice a week most of the year but with different emphasis dependent on season. Most of us do some sort of 'distance' run during the week as well as the three sessions. Our group is very mixed and has a couple of blokes who are like Ducks - best at that relatively unusual 400- 800 combo.

I'm still trying to sort out what the sport scientists types meant in their follow up info from the study we took part in. I might pick your scientific brain on that one if you don't mind. Force production jargon etc.

26/09/2012 at 12:28
sharkie wrote (see)

I'm still trying to sort out what the sport scientists types meant in their follow up info from the study we took part in. I might pick your scientific brain on that one if you don't mind. Force production jargon etc.

I'd love to take a look!  You could just throw up the jargon on here, and we'll all have a laugh!  (Just yesterday I was trying to explain quantum evaporation from singularities in less than 100 words...).  If it's bio-jargon, DrD will be your translator!

Welcome back, PP.  Are you sure some of the Ryan Air passengers even qualified to be in a demographic?

26/09/2012 at 14:23

Welcome back PhilP ... nice bike mileage and well done on the club avoidance.

Hmm, sports sciencey bio-jargon... make it molecular bio-jargon and I'm on it .

5.4 miles today ... the bug that caused my youngest to spend last Friday night vomiting has, so far, only resulted in a few head aches, tiredness and a phlegmy throat in dad. MrsD has the same as me but my eldest daughter had to leave class yesterday due to feeling faint (she never gets ill). So to combat it I did the sensible thing and went off to do a session .... probably should be resting but, since my HR seemed okay, the taper madness got the better of me. Only 5.4 miles but with a nice progressive 4.2 miles in the middle, going from about MP to 10KP.

lap 1: 7:35/m, 137 bpm
lap 2: 7:09/m, 142 bpm
lap 3: 7:01/m, 146 bpm
lap 4, 6:37/m, 154 bpm

Felt pretty good ... 8/m mara race pace should feel very comfortable (well for a while anyway).

Edited: 26/09/2012 at 14:25
26/09/2012 at 15:38

Dr Dan -  you are like a litter bug dropping into threads posting that ‘training for the right distance’ link
Nice session by the way.

Sounds like an excellent holiday Phil, good work getting the bike miles in, I would say you probably missed a 'treat' by not going clubbing.

Excellent holiday PB Curly, enjoy the post holiday blues

It's been a mad few days for me. My car was written off on Monday, then the floods came to North Yorkshire making travel pretty difficult as I normally drive past Boroughbridge and that is now almost entirely submerged. The good news is it looks like I have a new car sorted, I put a deposit down this morning but have to go over to Manchester on Saturday to get it. Despite all of the above Redcar HM prep seems to be going well. 5m at lunch yesterday and a 10k fartlek last night and a nice easy 4.5mile run at lunch today. Will do something longer but not hard tomorrow morning and then into taper mode. Feeling confident for Sunday, looking forward to having another crack at the half marathon, I just hope the weather doesn’t hamper proceedings….......

26/09/2012 at 15:42

General question for those that have practiced or know about carbohydrate depletion. What does a carb deplete look like in practical terms?
Does it just mean avoiding starchy foods (potatoes, rice, pasta, bread, beans) but still eating protein, fruit and veg. Or is fruit and veg off the menu as well? Are there any simple rules to follow if I want to try it?
What about kit kats, can I eat them when carb depleting?

Edited: 26/09/2012 at 15:45
26/09/2012 at 16:05
Y D wrote (see)
Dr Dan -  you are like a litter bug dropping into threads posting that ‘training for the right distance’ link
Nice session by the way.

I feel like doing it more ...  but hold myself back.

26/09/2012 at 16:33

YD, fruit and root veg are off the menu, no sugar, no starch.  Simple rule: you can eat anything that doesn't have any carbs.  Practical rule: some things do have some carbs and you just have to put up with it.

Breakfast: Sausage and eggs.
Lunch: Omelette.
Dinner: Steak and mushrooms, with salad.
Snacks: Nuts, cheese.

This is why you only do it for one day!  Actually, that's the harsh version.  If you're still exercising, rather than tapering, I'm sure you could have a few slow release carbs as you'd end the day somewhat depleted.  That might negate the benefits prf was alluding to.

In complete coincidence, on Monday I was chatting to a mate about this which appeared on a Horizon program.  Regular low carb days could really be healthy!  I'm going for Saturdays, myself...  (I decided that at the end of last Saturday...)

26/09/2012 at 16:37

Dr Dan - That holding yourself back should stand you in good stead for Chester next week.

Curly - Where did the 5:57 come from then? Is this another one of those scandals waiting to be uncovered where we find that you caught a bus for half the course?
However, in the absence of any such scandals coming to light you must be looking forward to an imminent sub 20 5K?

YD - That was certainly a day where you probably wished you hadnt bothered getting up. Then again I suppose that if a car is going to give up the ghost there are worse times than when you were about to change it anyway.

In terms of carb depletion, it doesnt have to be 100% avoid anything with carbs in but more a case of minimising any obviously carby type foods and replacing them with more protein. So for me it means no muesli, bread, potatoes, chocolate etc and plenty fish (mussels, salmon, tuna), eggs, peanuts, meat (mainly chicken). And plenty veg and fruit.


My session today, after two rest days, was planned as:

4 miles w/u + 2 x 5 miles @ 6:20ish.

It became:

4 miles w/u + 1 mile @ 6:41

So not really what you'd call a major success

However it was no great surprise. After a tough week last week, following on from GNR the week before, with plenty intensity in the mix I have then had 2 rest days to start this week off.

The net effect of that sequence is that the calves were on the stiff side and after 5 miles still werent as loose as I would like. It just seemed too risky to at this stage to carry on with it.

The all out attack on sub 17 on Saturday is very definitely still on the cards though (although I'll settle for 17:15 )

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