The Middle Ground

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01/10/2012 at 06:59

Brilliant YD. Well done!   I heard it was really windy.

Curly - marathon training will start mid December I would think.   I have GER and the Town Moor marathon to run before that though!

You seem to have come back really quickly and smashing out very fast times.  What's your secret?  I still struggle with shorter faster stuff, which is why I like marathons so much!

01/10/2012 at 09:00

Well done the mini YP's parkrun pb and cake munching!

YP sounds like a proper decent Sunday run there!

YD awesome running. I'm so pleased you have finally nailed the half as a run you can be proud off, imagine what you can smash out on a calm day (mind you not sure you ever get them up there). Apart from immediate recovery what's next for you? Should be pretty exciting.

Moraghan agrees 72 mins is a good target so you lot can have your own sub 70 train!

Nice long run from Phil shows you are back on track to full fitness. And amazing stats!

Minni I was thinking about this on yesterday's long run...I think it is consistency, but I have made some changes that have allowed me to achieve that.

Cycling more means I always reasonably warmed up for evening runs (before I was trying to run them straight after a train journey!It has also given me more cross training (but I dont think that can be having a massive effect because Magpie doesnt cycle anywhere near as much as me and has improved recently too).

Club nights mean I always get one hard session in a week.

I've added a few more miles a week in the last few weeks and I've got marathon kick back. Which is why I wasnt too surprised about the mile time as I was thinking about 6:05-6:10, but Saturday was more of a surprise as I didnt expect the strength to be coming through already.

I also think its worth bearing in mind that I am sitting near or just below the level I was in August last year - its a lot easier to get back than it is to push on beyond that.

Town Moor - Forever ran that a while back didnt she? Are you running it as a long run or targeting a time?



01/10/2012 at 09:09

Oh and I forgot to say I have also lost about 5-6lbs over the time I have been back. Am aiming for another 5 before Brighton but will see what happens (am not too fussed, most of it has come off without trying so will carry on until it stops!).

01/10/2012 at 09:27

This was were we got to up to 2 weeks ago so the one or two updates since then need adding in.

Calculator here: 

87.54% RobT (5k 16:27, July)
84.00% PhilPub (5K, 16:15, August) 
83.19% BR (10K, 34:40, June) 
82.20% PRF (Half Marathon, 1:18:41, September) 
80.19%  Hilly (5k 20:25, June)

79.15% forever (5K, 20:41, July)
78.83% Simon (4'26.73, August)
78.02% Duck (800m, 2'09.65, August)
76.18% Ratzer (200m, 27.55, August)
75.58% YD (5k, 17:16, September)
73.58% StevieG (5k, 17:37, June)
72.88% Mr V (5K, 17:42, July)
71.21% Dr.Dan (5K, 20:04, August) 
70.10% YoungPup (5K, 19:29, June) 

68.70% Darola (5K, 20:48, July) 
66.94% Curly (5K, 22:07, June)

Out of date:

01/10/2012 at 09:37

Hilly - OUCH.! If it's anything like my bke injuries, it won't have a lasting effect on the running.

YD ... fantastic race. I had a strong feeling you were going to nail that one.

Nice weight loss Curly. Unfortunatey, as well as not running, I've been eating like a Simon Edward this week.

Still lurgied - as is always the case, it gets worse in the evenings. But after a couple of bad nights, I've now managed to sleep until about 5ish the last two nights before having the first coughing fit, so that's been a bonus. Cutting it fine but there's still a chance I will run on Sunday.

Edited: 01/10/2012 at 09:38
01/10/2012 at 09:44

Curly - next two big A races are Lancaster Half on the 4th November and the Abbey Dash on the 18th November. There are ‘B’ race options in the meantime (a 10k and a couple of xc races) however I wont decide to run those until last minute, will just see what fits and what I fancy in the week leading up to the race.
Don’t be surprised if improvements continue beyond your August last year level. Consistent consistency reaping rewards and all that. Its good to see.

Thanks Minni, yes it was windy, BS calculator says it was worth 67 seconds
My long run buddy is running the Town Moor Marathon this year, he is gunning for the win, he came 2nd last year and wonders if he should have been more bold and gone for the win. Do you have a target or are you just using it as a tough long run?

Thanks YP, yep agreed, it does make a compelling argument for cautious starts. Based on your 13 with 10 yesterday I think you are looking in good shape for some strong autumn performances.

Dr Dan -  thanks. Fingers crossed for the lurgy to subside. There is always the using Chester as a strong long training run with a number if you are not 100%. Could be a good springboard for a good AD campaign.

After the GNR my legs were absolutely mashed, I was limping a bit the next day. This morning they feel surprisingly good, not sure if my legs have adapted a bit since GNR or if my approach to the race yesterday is having less of an impact. Most likely a bit of both.

01/10/2012 at 09:57

Calculator here: 

87.54% RobT (5k 16:27, July)
84.00% PhilPub (5K, 16:15, August)
82.20% PRF (Half Marathon, 1:18:41, September)
81.43% (5k, 17:01, August)
80.91%  Hilly (5k 20:14, July)

79.15% forever (5K, 20:41, July)
78.83% Simon (4'26.73, August)
78.02% Duck (800m, 2'09.65, August)
76.74% SG, (5m, 27:56, September)
76.18% Ratzer (200m, 27.55, August)
75.58% YD (5k, 17:16, September)
72.88% Mr V (5K, 17:42, July)
71.21% Dr.Dan (5K, 20:04, August) 
70.78% Curly (5m, 34:12, September)

68.70% Darola (5K, 20:48, July) 

Out of date:

Edited: 01/10/2012 at 10:00
01/10/2012 at 10:07

YD - Superb effort at Redcar.

No doubt that has answered a lot of questions for you. I know you were starting to scratch your head a bit about longer races and especially about why you were struggling in the closing stages.

The only way to sort that out was to attack the weakness by running a strong finish and ignoring the pace of the early race......and that is exactly what you did to perfection. The stats are brilliant and should be shown to 95% of HM runners as an example of how to improve times by doing it properly.

Is there a Hilly/Curly Cabbage Patch smackdown building up? Ooh, goody goody.

Curly - A rich vein of form has been hit by the looks of it. The key now is not to get scared by the thought of times just because they are quicker than you've experienced before. Then again. that didnt seem to stop you in the mile.

Hilly - Can you stop trying to break yourself. Kicking fences and falling off bikes!!!

Sept stats - I dont normally look at monthly stats but for Sept it was:
249 Miles (but that includes this last week which was only 23 miles)
10 Races
4 Comeback PBs

The sub 17 attempt on Saturday was a non starter due to blusteriness.

I reckoned it was probably 17:30ish conditions but just before the start I though 'sod it, I've come for a sub 17 so might as well give it a go'.

The initial 300+ runners became 3 within about 400m and my company was a 16:42 runner and a 17:03 runner. If it was going to happen this would have been perfect. Still jointly leading and bang on pace at halfway but I worked far too hard into the wind to be there so it unwound fairly quickly from there. But most people were 20-30 secs down on normal so it was a bit of a forlorn hope from the outset.

I'll get it later though

5 Days 22 Hours 53 Minutes 18 Seconds to go........

01/10/2012 at 10:38

Hilly, you and your legs!!  If you still have both of them at CP I'll join you for sub-70.  On paper I should be going for a PB, but on tarmac I'll be happy with a progressive run.  The PB can wait another four or five months.

YD, I think prf put it all best.  I'll just say that it's great that you sounded so happy with an HM, at last.  prf, yourself, unlucky on the sub-17, but the way you're going if that perfect race doesn't happen in the next couple of months you'll be doing it in a non-perfect race anyway!

Curly, non-carb day was nothing to do with losing weight, just to do with treating the body differently.  It's just another experiment coming out of Brf's observations and a little bit of speculative science.  Whether it has any impact in the real world remains to be seen.  Of course, it has to happen regularly, and I'm better prepared for next Saturday now that I know how difficult it is to organise a non-carb day!!  (Must remember to get steak out of the freezer on Friday night.)  I must say that Sunday's run felt easy even before breakfast - no low-carb dizziness or tiredness.  But I did only do about seven miles in the end, because of stopping and chatting!  Seven miles took nearly an hour and a half!  Wanted to add another later run, but that fell through because of (home-)work.

Day off today.

01/10/2012 at 10:46

LOL PRF about your countdown!Sorry about your 5k - you can grab it post marathon when you have the kick back anyway.

No smackdown, I'm aiming for a pb, but not that big of one. Hilly / YP can have a smackdown

I'm not scared of any time, but managing my expectations. This is a B race for me, just a marker going into Gosport.

Stevie we checked and are on the entry list so thats all good!

Xpost with Razter what are you testing in your experiment then? Sounds interesting.

Edited: 01/10/2012 at 10:48
01/10/2012 at 10:58
parkrunfan wrote (see)
5 Days 22 Hours 53 Minutes 18 Seconds to go........

5 Days 22 Hours 3 minutes and 30 Seconds to go........

Note the similarity in time but difference in face.


01/10/2012 at 11:20

Good work Curly, will look forward to seeing you, and a lot of this thread on the CP day. Hopeful a few of the other thread lot will turn up too.

I have 2 races coming up that if they go well , I'll look forward to joining you at Gosport.....would like to try that race 100% fit, rather than the 90% fit i was 2 years ago where one of those slight colds took the edge off a little.

01/10/2012 at 11:22

I am holding onto the idea that it wont be windy! But I bet it will be...

We are planning on running CP route this weekend as part of our long run, I've done lots of it in sections but never the complete route so it will be good to get some knowledge!

Phil are you running the Vets XC in Richmond park on 13th? I am going to be marshalling

01/10/2012 at 12:42

all I remember is that the first mile invites a fast start, there's an odd mile or so on gravelly type path, and then some steps somewhere between 8-9miles.

Gosport was cold in Nov 2010, I can still remember being slightly worried i could barely feel my hands when trying to put the chip on...the airfield will be windy, just hope it's " a bit" rather than "loads"


01/10/2012 at 13:19
YD - the chap that came first last year had completely had towards the end of the last lap. He was down to walking and looked and losing it mentally too. As he came past us, about 800m from the end we encouraged him to run again and he did make an effort to shuffle to the end. Apologies to your friend who might have come first if it hadn't been for that.

I was injured last year so did a drinks table for my mates instead but possibly would have finished first lady if I'd run.

This year I've not marathon trained so the plan was to use it as a training run. I've got a couple of 20s under my belt now and another one to do do we'll see. I've run it before and it's not a hard course. (but it is still 26.2 miles!)
01/10/2012 at 14:36

Thanks prf, and thanks for some of the post GNR advice, it worked well.

I saw the Hull parkrun result and realised that most times were down 30 seconds or more, so I assumed it was windy. Would have been a nice tune up for Chester all the same. Let me know when you are ready to have another crack at sub 17? Get up to Boro parkrun for a change, SM will be up for it as will I would have thought.  

Ratzer, after my mini experiment last week I am now going to try a non carb day once a week from now on. Also gonna get in more pre breakfast runs in. I think it will help. Will be interesting to compare notes over the coming weeks.

Minni – my buddy (SM - the same chap mentioned in my comment to prf above) was aware the leader was on his arse, he said that he could see him struggle as they ran past each other on the grass bit, I assume that’s towards the end of the lap. He was very satisfied with his performance, but he had that nagging doubt as he finished so strongly, could he have pushed on the middle part of the race and took the win. That’s why he is going back for more this year, I would think he is good for a sub 2:50 on a good road course but is sacrificing the time in the hope of another pot hunt at Town Moor.
What’s the logic on the full distance long run then? I thought coach was against going the full distance.

01/10/2012 at 16:13

Curly, nice run & weekly mileage! I meant decline in terms of poorer conversion (and hence slower times). 

YD, great pacing and a great time to boot! Now you know how to get them paced I'm sure you'll get that sub-80 soon. I also think when you have a good race you're less sore than a bad race.

prf, shame on the sub-17 attempt but hopefully after Chester it'll be there in the right conditions.

Went down to the track today for the first time in almost a month. 6*200 @ 85% w/walkback rec. 31.5, 30.3, 29.4, 29.4, 29.1, 27.2. Feeling a little sluggish as the pace gets ramped up but it was a decent session. Final 200 felt pretty good despite being tired & I could have gone on further as well so that's promising. 

01/10/2012 at 16:42

YD - cracking run, nice one. I think the HR data bears out one of the aspects of starting a bit too quick compared to starting a little conservative; it's very difficult to get the HR down again without it disproportionately affecting pace.  Add in the mental aspect of hanging on rather than feeling strong, and it's clear which will be the more satisfying race experience.

prf - Four modern-era PBs in one month is some going.    I'm sure the sub-17 will come on a more clement day.

Curly - I'm XCing on the 13th but it will be the first Surrey League fixture.  December's the month for Vets XC - Southern champs on the 8th and Kent County 15th.

On a related note, the only prediction I'm gonna make re CP is that my 1:00:07 PB will be hammered, even if I'm walking like John Wayne from my recent racing.  I think it's gonna be tough work though.

01/10/2012 at 18:21

YD - I don't see why he can't do that on the TM course.  Its pretty flat and only that grassy hill to contend with but once at the top there's a good 2 miles of downhill/flat.  It was really interesting watching the race unfold last year.  Its 5 laps and everyone was very jolly on the first two then with each lap you could see the runners starting to dig in.  The thing that amazed me was everyone deteriorated at about the same rate no matter how fast they were running.  The ladies stayed in the same order for the first three laps but in the end it was the one who had been in forth or fifth place (and quite far back) who came through for a surprise win.

Are you coming up to support? We will likely have beer on our drinks table!

Y D wrote (see)
What’s the logic on the full distance long run then? I thought coach was against going the full distance.

Its a forum outing (from the sub 3:30 thread).  There are 6 or 7 of us running with others coming along to support and because it was my suggestion I think I should do it!

The plan was to not target it because I really wanted to concentrate on shorter distance over the summer, but that hasn't really happened, hence running it at an easy pace.  I think i'll probably end up giving it all I've got but keep that to yourself!


01/10/2012 at 19:18

Phil its surrey champs on 13th but vets only, RH are hosting:

The full fixture is on 20th (day before CP)... are you doing both or getting confused?

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