The Middle Ground

Good to see you, CB, and good to hear that you are still running!

EDIT: For some reason my reply only posted part of my message so will be back later this evening to finish it...

Hi everyone - cheers for the welcome to the thread - sorry about my earlier post as well as I ran out of time on my lunch and it only sent half of it! I have been reading a number of the regular threads over a number of months and it does give me some good inspiration now that I have got back into my running this year - last year was spent largely putting on weight with only the odd run every week or two.

So I had the Cardiff half yesterday and as some of you have said, the weather was perfect - pretty lucky considering how it has been and with the dodgy forecast for periods this week.

Hilly - it is a new course this year...it started by Cardiff Castle and ended in the Civic Centre...I have read some very positive comments on it although one or two noted that it was hillier than they thought it would be in places (also in answer to you there PhilPub). But to be honest, I don't think the 'hills' were that significant to stop chasing that elusive PB! The race though seemed to be very well organised and no short distance as with what happened when I raced this on a different route 2 years ago! The atmosphere was great too and I thought starting by Cardiff Castle was a great idea!

PhilPub - my target for this race was to get a sub 1:35 after hitting 1:35:00 dead in Bristol (not planned at all as I thought I was actually going to be under that after over relying on my GPS up until the last mile). That was three weeks ago and this time I felt stronger still and surprised myself by clocking 1:31:02. So I was happy with that as it is a PB for half marathon for me Next target now surely has to be sub 1:30. I really should post more about my training schedule and what my usual routine is at some point and what I may need to do to maximise any improvements I can make.

As for the race, I was in the yellow pin where the starters were predicted to get between 1:30 and 1:45 - so the 3rd fastest pin in all (fastest being sub 120 and 2nd pin 1:20 to 1:30). A first mile was spent weaving through other runners a little bit and this was measured at 1.10 miles by the time I reached the first mile marker. Every mile marker after this was 0.1 miles further than what I recorded on my watch but I don't think this made too much difference on the bigger scheme of things. With the Bristol half three weeks ago, my average pacing was roughly between 7:00-7:15 per mile as a give and take average. Yesterday my first few miles were in 6:48 for the first two and 6:44 for the 3rd.

The 4th mile included a large incline (up Penarth Road for those who know Cardiff and the surrounding area - I am originally from this area myself) and at the end of this mile I clocked 6:53 roughly. At this point I had thoughts going through my head that a sub 1:30 was potentially achievable but I also thought surely not today so soon after my Bristol time I thought as I started running through the barrage…talk about a mixture of emotions on tactics ahead in the middle of a race!.....

…..my pacing stayed under 7 minute mile pace up until the 10 mile mark. From this point onwards it ranged from just over 7 min mile to 7:10 min mile sort of pace as I felt myself tiring a little....I have never taken energy gels until Bristol and am amazed I never did so before as they definitely pulled me through to the line! I run for a club on the south coast in Hamphsire and it was great to see other runners from local clubs in the race as well.....and I managed to have a few brief conversations/banter with one or two along the way and at the end (i.e. Chichester, Lordshill (Southampton), Winchester, Portsmouth Joggers). Having revised my sub 1:30 ambition which lasted all for about 20 minutes from about the 4th mile, I knew a sub 1:31 was on up until the last few hundred metres but I was unable to achieve this as my sprint is certainly not one of my strengths. But overall I cannot be unhappy at yesterday.  Next target now is the Great South Run at the end of the month where I am hoping to beat my PB of a few years ago (1:08:01).

I was even more impressed with my brother who has joined his local running club in Wales. He started out back in May and he has progressed quickly and improved with distance what with a 37 minute 5 mile time in May, an undulating 10k in 42:02 in August, a few park runs/5K club championship race where he has gone from roughly 21 minutes to 19:41 in September and now a sub 1:30 marathon on just a few long runs within his overall training. I cannot help to be jealous as I find I have to work so much harder to get these sort of times!

Anyway – that’s my race report done for now. I have been reading over what you have all done and some good running/training going on!  

The Duckinator – very impressive running two races in one day and driving 60 miles to do the 2nd as well. Real dedication that!

Hilly – some good training there too! I guess I also have similar targets to you re 10K’s in that I have hit sub 40 once before (Eastleigh 2009) and would love to again which will most probably be next year now as long as I continue with my training and perhaps improve with my overall training programme! I would love to get better than this though (sub 39 as what you say) but one step at a time for me).

Alehouse – as what everyone else has said…good luck with the consultant and the tests.

YP, have been prescribed the last one....1mile at each of HMP, Tempo, then 10k pace off 90s. Sounds about right pre big race day.

Welcome back CB. 

WJH - Nicely done.  That's a good chunk to finish inside target on a lumpy course. You'll have plenty of people to drag you round for another PB at GSR.

YP - I think anything between target pace and a little quicker to get the legs going round is good.  I'm just going with the flow as we have a pyramid session planned, 200, 400, 600, 800, 1k... back down.  So on paper quite a bit quicker than target pace on the whole but then again I won't be tonking it given my recent health.

... The stats are getting a little better though.  7M easy this evening, 1,004 beats per mile so getting back towards the 900s.  Also a very sweaty spin class at lunchtime.

Hi Guys,

Just thought I'd let you know I caught up with Forever at the GER yesterday.  Bliddy hell she is one fast lady these days.  I'm sure she won't mind me telling you she ran 1:28 yesterday.  Yes that's ONE TWENTY EIGHY!  I think I'm right in saying she ran a HM pb last weekend of 1:30 and was pleased with that but then came out just 7 days later and knocked 2 minutes off!

I ran 1:32 AGAIN!  I can't seem to get away from that time now!  Brass Monkey will now be the sub 1:30 attempt!

Thanks YoungPup - my training is fairly consistent in that I run about 4 or 5 times a week on average and also play inline hockey (on rollerblades) so have one training a week with that plus games every weekend out of 2 or 3 between October and April. I average about 25 miles a week at the moment...sometimes it may be just over 30 other times just over 20 or a bit less. So even though I am running consistently, other commitments and being disorganised from time to time means that I may not do speed work weekly, a long run weekly, etc. The following is an example of a typical week's training;

Monday evening - inline hockey training (1 and a half hours). Perhaps this can be viewed as some sort of cross training as it does seem to work completely different muscle groups in my legs?

Tuesday evening - running club - speed work (never on a track and all on pavement or road/5k time trail (one Tuesday a month) or occasionally a 5 mile temp run.

Wednesday evening - sometimes do a hiller 5 mile run or its a free evening.

Thursday evening - running club or treadmill at the gym...both of these will be tempo based and I try and do between 6-8 miles. 

Friday evening - sometimes I get to do a 5 mile run at about 8 minute mile pace or it is a free evening.

Saturday day- either a park run or a longer 5/7 mile run again at about 7:30-8 min mile pace.  

Sunday day - a run of at least 10 miles as long as I haven't got a hockey match/race, etc. Over the last month I have spent two Tuesday's running 10 miles or so rather than doing speed work in order to concentrate on the half marathon having had commitments over the weekends. I also try not to run for a day or two before if I have a race on Sunday. 

So although I am running a fair amount (allbeit not anything in the league of some of you guys), there is probably a lack of structure and perhaps too much quality at times (I do try a best effort on the treadmill on the Thursday's if at the gym for example following speedwork on a Tuesday). I would welcome comments from anyone where this could be improved/made more consistent in a way?  I guess my aims are like most really...the sub 40 10k (again having got just inside this the one time/a sub 1:30 half/sub 18:30 5k? 

Recent times apart from the half have been 41:46 for a flat 10k and anything between 19:37 and 20:00 for flat 5k courses. 

Thanks PhilPub! Hopefully it can be although perhaps with that it will also depend on the weather...if it is windy on the promenade over the last few miles running into the prevailing wind, that could make it trickier!  I was very pleased to be about 20 seconds outside my 10 mile PB at the 10 mile mark yesterday though.

Just been reading about the Cabbage Patch 10 mile race...sounds like a race right up my street what with this and a half marathon currently being my strengths or at least races where I can get the pacing right without fading far too early! 

WJH - sounds like a good breakthrough.  FWIW I agree there's far too much running in the `junk' zone - runs not fast enough to target specific improvement but too fast to for them to be recovery runs to allow you to smack the sessions.

Given your current week I'd go for:-

Monday - skates
Tuesday - club session
Wednesday - 60 mins @8:30-9m/m
Thursday - tempo
Friday - 45 mins @ 8:30-9m/m
Saturday - 60 mins @ 8:30-9m/m (or parkrun)
Sunday - 1hr 45 building up to 2hrs+ @ 8:30-9m/m

The idea being to build your aerobic base from below rather than trying to run fairly hard all the time and only developing your upper levels of effort.

CB - nice to see you back

Minni - how does GER compare to Brass Monkey?  A few local runners went down and got pbs.

In a change of advertised plan we won't be at Dulwich on Saturday as it's just too tricky to get to by 9am.  St Albans looks likely unless someone can suggest a flat certified parkrun en route?

I have a CP10 number going spare if anyone wants it.  Issues eased up but haven't gone, so a steady 7 last night has shredded my legs.  But that's not really it, as I still would have run it as a long run (for me it's still long at the moment!).  Nope, the real issue now is I've been booked on a flight out of Heathrow at 25 past one.  I can't figure the logistics with enough contingency...  I know it's only 20 mins to Heathrow, but finish, shower, long term parking to airport...

Nice PB, WJH.  Who does your brother run for?  And yup, I think BR's got you pinned.  At pace, you're a one speed runner.

Minni, not so shabby yourself!  Even if forever is flying.

WJH – Nice breakthrough and good to see you posting. I agree with BR. Working on your aerobic development is probably the best approach for you at this stage.

Chubby – Good to have you back. Wonder what’s happened to Darola.

YP – What’s your Cabbage Patch target?

I need to try and organise a move of club. Mine is just getting silly now. The fast pack was running 7.40s to start with last night. Last week I think they barely broke 8s for the early miles. Shame as we used to have a really good fast pack which would start anywhere between 6:00 and 6:45 depending on who turned up and would be progressive through to sub 6 for the final couple of miles.

Duck - The Po10 adminstators will be glad to hear that their efforts arent going to waste, nice confidence building stalking. It was all going well until Phil suggested you were turning into me, whatever does he mean?

Phil - There cant be too many clubs with that level of representation on the Champs start. You bunch of elitists

CB - Good to see you posting again and sounding positive.

WJH - Thats an impressive chunk off your PB there. You should go close at GSR as long as the wind behaves itself.

Having completed an impressive 1 run in 8 days, and a total of 4 miles, in true RW style I now need some advice:

My parkruns for the last 2 weeks have been 27:48 and 22:29. Do you reckon I will ever be able to run a sub 20, and if so can I do it off my current mileage or will I need to up my volume to 8mpw? I might even be prepared to go as high as 10mpw at a push. And how long will it take to get to sub 20?

parkfunrun - not sure what you're trying to achieve with that insane amount of mileage but you're going about it the wrong way. The best way to run a sub-20 is to go along to your local parkrun and as soon as it starts sprint as fast as you can, for as long as you can. When you get tired, stop and also make sure to stop your watch at the same time. When you're recovered,sprint again for as long as you can, then stop and recover (make sure to stop your watch again!). Repeat this until you've finished, and you will have 'run' a sub-20 for sure (never mind what the results say). You might even break the world record!

YP, good time from the wee one. 

BR, sounds like you're getting back to old form now which is good to see. I spied your win on the results page and figured you probably didn't push it that hard.

Stevie, funny you mention that as I reckon I could be relatively better at XC than the road... I do have quite a bit of leg strength which I'm sure contributes quite a bit. I was only 6s slower than someone who ran the track 10k in sub-37... now that would be nice 

Mr V, blimey! You should take up swimming  

Welcome back cb, we all have an addiction to this place but none of us speak of it.

WJH, nicely excecuted race, sounds like there is probably a little bit more time to come off & your 10M target is there for the taking. And yes like the others I'd say slow the easy stuff down as you looks like you run at one pace right now. It'll help with the finishing kick too!

I'm off down t'track to try out my new Adizero Cadences. It's freezing.

PRF – If you are really committed and are prepared to hit the 10mpw you mentioned I think it’s doable. My advice would be to run 5k three times a week. All done at flat out speed. It’s important that you don’t warm up before doing this but hit it hard from the off. Can we trade advice? I’ve got a marathon in 4 weeks and NEED to go sub 3. I ran a HM time trial in 2.04 last Sunday. Can I do the sub 3 marathon and what training should I be doing?

WJH – welcome, excellent breakthrough, and yes I agree with the others, aerobic development will get you the improvements you desire, so do what BR suggests, he knows his onions.

Shame about CP Ratzer, sounds like you are struggling a bit at the mo anyway.

Good to see you back CB

Some good clubs up your way Mr V, so plenty to chose from. What about joining one of the stellar clubs like Gateshead or Morpeth? Plenty of faster runners to chase down, and maybe getting taken out of your comfort zone and being dragged round by some faster lads once in a while might be a good thing.

prf, with that rate of improvement I look forward to seeing you on the telly in Rio. Though it will take at least 30mpw to achieve that lofty goal. Are you man enough.

Not much to report here, gonna head down the club for the first time in months tomorrow. Apparently the session is 3 x 5mins, not sure what to make of that. Suppose if I aim at 10k pace it will do me some good as I have been doing mostly longer slower work lately and could probably do with a couple of sharpeners between now and Lancaster.
prf,  Lancaster course information is required please. I know there is some off road stuff on the course. What type of off road is it? stoney farm type tracks, woodland trail, riverside path etc..? The reason for the question is my usual racing shoes have holes in the soles (by design) and its gets annoying when stones get caught in them. Is that likely to be a problem on this course?

Duck - Hadnt thought about stopping the watch part way round. Great idea. In fact, I would have had a better finishing time on Saturday if I'd stopped the watch at the point when I fell down a pothole. Then again I could stop falling down potholes, that might help?

Mr V - I've just done some quick calculations and it looks like the best way to get a sub 3 is to keep that 2:04 up your sleeve for the second half. You then just need to ease through the first half in a smidge under 56 minutes and you'll be well on target. This running game is easy if you keep things simple

YD - On the way out there is about 5 miles in a straight line along the estuary path, which is a mixture of compacted soil, gravel path and stretches of tarmac. I ran that path hundreds of times when at university and I dont recall any problems with loose stones so I reckon you should be fine.

Thanks prf, racing shoes it is, how is the ankle?

The ankle has been a bit of a strange affair.

On Saturday at the point of the incident it was excruciatingly painful but as the day went on I really thought that I'd dodged the bullet as the discomfort eased off and it seemed to be fully mobile.

Then on Sunday morning it was incredibly painful again, very swollen and wouldnt take any weight. A day of painkillers and elevation followed.

And then yesterday morning.....nothing! I couldnt even detect any soreness by pushing a finger hard into the worst affected area. It was 100% fixed. Puzzling but impressive.

YD – I already have a club lined up. Really well organised, growing, strength in depth, compete in everything etc etc. They are stealing members from lots of clubs in the area

PRF – Once again you display non human levels of recovery. Can anything break you???