The Middle Ground

21,601 to 21,620 of 28,546 messages
12/11/2012 at 15:52

Phil, can't comprehend running again after biking! Very well done indeed. As Mr V said, impressive to still be running sub-6 miles after all that. 

Nosemi, shaking is just the core muscles working hard. Don't worry about it, it's normal. 

Re: club training, Tom summed it up well IMO. I train on my own, more due to time constraints and having a different agenda to what a club session would often be. 

Kelly, that is interesting about the pbs! Warming up before a race... how novel  

Mr V, base II has more max speed work in, more intense track sessions as specific prep for pre-comp, and harder aerobic work. A subtle shift but I'm eyeing up a few indoor races in the new year.

December 16th is the first indoor meet of the season up here. I believe it's the start of the 60m league (3 60m races in a day, 1 every hour) so I'm probably going to enter it to see how I'm doing on the start/acceleration front. 

12/11/2012 at 16:20

Afternoon all, been a busy bee on a training course last week in Rickmansworth, living in a hotel room revising for exams etc so Runners World took a back seat. So I have no idea what has been happening other than Phil performed admirably yesterday and Hilly and BR ran at Middlesbrough parkrun on Sat. I know that because I was also there, I ran it without a watch and clocked 17:34, 18 seconds shy of PB. I felt knackered, stressed and I had a sore neck/shoulder on Saturday morning, so on reflection I am very happy that I ran fairly close to PB when feeling no where near my best, I think the PB will be ready to go when I attack it when feeling 100%. I ran a hilly 15 miler yesterday to bring up 55 miles for the week, also got in a tough hill session in midweek, so plenty decent running going on.

Looks like I am running a 5 mile race a week on Sat, the same one as Mr V and Kelly, looking forward to that, I hope the weather holds off!

Suppose I should have a read back, keep up the good work everybody

Edited: 12/11/2012 at 16:29
13/11/2012 at 09:24
Good time YD even though not a pb.
Done 7 this am and hope to do another 7 at lunch im trying to cram some miles in so I can have sat as rest before Leeds.
The new shoes are doing a grand job of caring for my feet but the extra miles I'm now doing are tiring my shins so just being carefull I don't overdo it. always something!
So if the plank is so good how come no doms pain? I'm sure I would hurt if I did 2.5 min of situps...
13/11/2012 at 09:59

I haven't planked for a while. I did have a plank off with one of uor students in June. I collapsed after 2 mins and she lasted 5. (in my defence she is on the junior GB water polo team) I hammered her on the press ups with claps though .

Intervals this morning. I'm struggling to get into doing regular quality at the moment, and the paces were somewhat disheartening. Patience...

5:15 Hilly? Well done! I managed to crawl out of bed at 5:43 this morning, but drove to work before starting running at a pathetic 6:30

13/11/2012 at 10:14

Plank, I did 2 mins once, I often do 1 minute, never really pushed it beyond that. Is it worth the effort? As for it not giving you DOMS Nosemi, I don’t think you are really breaking the muscles down with the plank like you do with sit ups or crunches, so no after effects or DOMS. That’s my stab at the theory anyway.

I have had a read back and you are all rubbish and should train more…..

13/11/2012 at 10:57

YD – Good assessment What’s the target for Gosforth? Sub 29?

13/11/2012 at 11:14
Yep about that Mr V. McMillan says 28:38 based on my 5k best, and McMillan has proven to be accurate between 5k and 10k for me in the past.
13/11/2012 at 11:18
Y D wrote (see)

I have had a read back and you are all rubbish and should train more…..

Conversation in the office kitchen this morning...

"All right Phil?"
"Yeah not bad, calves are still very sore after Sunday's race though."
"Ah racing. [non-ironic...] You should train for races, that would make them easier."

Have you been talking to people YD? 


Edited: 13/11/2012 at 11:19
13/11/2012 at 11:29

Not at all Phil. I did notice you had to wear a special suit for your race at the weekend, so that makes you exempt from my comment

I am ready to post up my Marathon training plan, its all on an excel sheet, what’s the best way to post/host excel online? Any ideas?

13/11/2012 at 11:44
Y D wrote (see)

I have had a read back and you are all rubbish and should train more…..

I'm taking this one to heart.  Looking at my xc results I got worse in the recent one by comparison with near neighbours and yet I had a day off before!  Must remember to run a hard parkrun in the morning.  And train more.

Nice hour out this morning.  Think I did about 12 on Sunday, but regular day off yesterday.  Idea of doing gradually increasing MP runs is fading as I seem to have a xc fixture almost every weekend.  Still, can't beat a 10k tempo run...

So, there was a group of us jogging around on Sunday and the discussion turned to "Second Wind".  Nothing to do with trot follow-on.  Two of us experienced a second wind around two thirds of the way through the previous day's xc race.  What on earth is a 'second wind'?  Is it physiological?  Is it just psychological?  If it is psychological, can you bring it on by thinking the right things?  And, if it is psychological, is your performance actually improving, or are you just thinking that it is?  When did you last get a second wind?  Do you only get it in races where you've already had a bad patch?  If the race was good all the way through did it even cross your mind to have a second wind?  Has second wind led to a PB?

It led to me regaining quite a few paces that I'd lost, but still feeling that overall my race wasn't top notch.

13/11/2012 at 13:52


have had a read back and you are all rubbish and should train more

I took it to heart too, so ive just done another 7.5m in my lunch hour. 

Y D Hmm makes sense i suppose re plank. Will see if i can hold the shakes off and get a 3min on my 2nd effort.

Edited: 13/11/2012 at 13:53
13/11/2012 at 14:08

Sorry Ratzer.

Nice miles Nosemi, better than my 4 and bit miles at lunchtime.

As for second wind, not something I have ever thought about in running. It’s something that I often felt back in my Rugby playing days. Usually in the later stages of a game, I reckon its physiological, probably the late game tension or excitement when playing in a close scoring game. In my experience running is usually a gradual build up of fatigue, so a second wind doesn’t usually come into it.

Edited: 13/11/2012 at 14:12
13/11/2012 at 15:04

YD, nice going feeling crap. Google spreadsheets is good for putting stuff up I think. 

nosemi... you said you run in the Kinvaras right? Are you a heelstriker by any chance? 

cb, pressups with claps, no chance! I could perhaps manage one 

Ratzer, second wind. I used to  think it worked but now I'm not so sure. I used to do hard tempos without warming up first, so what I thought was a second wind was perhaps just the body getting warmed up and into its stride. Perhaps in longer races there is more scope for a 'purple patch' of a few miles or so when everything goes well, so perhaps it is a combination of psychological and physiological. 

I did get what you could call a second wind at the Detox 10k at the start of thhe year with 2k to go, once we got off the offroad section. I just felt like I could suddenly really attack the final section and ended up running the final 2k in about 7'20 IIRC. 

Tad under 5M today, 4M of it with mum along the beachfront. Cruised along in the 7:40s for most of it happily talking and not feeling like the pace was being pushed, so not a bad run at all. 

Also, may end up doing the Lumphanan 10k on Jannuary 2nd. Won't be in any shape to run a good 10k by that point I am sure (more specific 400/800 stuff before then), but it's my local race and it's a good day out.

Edited: 13/11/2012 at 15:09
13/11/2012 at 21:22

Mr V, good to see your fitness is returning.

Phil, great racing as usual. Sounds really gruelling - would definitely bust my nads.

NOSEMI, I don't think DOMS indicates the effectiveness of an exercise. For me, DOMS usually happens when I haven't done something for a while. YD, your explanation is rubbish and makes you the rubbishest of them all.

Ratzer, I think a lot of second winds can be explained by what Duck says - it's the body getting warmed up properly. I do think a lot of people don't warm up well enough for sessions. As for races, there is a trade off between getting too tired for a race and warming up completely. So in the case of an HM, you may deliberately use part of the race as a warm up. Being "fully" warmed up before may mean you are running more efficiently at the start, but it'll also mean you fatigue more quickly and don't run as well later on.

Managed to get out for a few miles for the first time in two weeks tonight. Fitness is horrific, but it's nice to be back out.

13/11/2012 at 21:39

 Simon, I read it in Runners World!!!!!

A good sign that easy pace is going up Duck

Bit of Tempo for me tonight, legs not really up for it, quite hard work really, just a get it done session in the end.
4 miles @ 5:59/mi for 84% maxHR, but the HR was rising quite sharply at the end. Splits: 6:00, 6:02, 5:57 and 5:58.
12.66 miles for the day.

Marathon plan to follow.....

13/11/2012 at 21:41

As promised my Marathon Plan. It is loosely based on the Canova approach, or my interpretation of it. The plan is divided into three phases.

First phase is designed to increase aerobic capacity, for this read threshold.

Second phase is more of a transition phase with the focus being on aerobic resistance – i.e. long tough runs with some shorter pace variations and progressive runs.

Third phase is the Marathon specific phase - long runs with decent miles at pace or the whole run done at pace and long tempo runs designed to stress your body for longer periods of time to simulate Marathon specific fatigue.

The plan just shows the key workouts that I have laid out. As always there will be lots of easy/slow miles around these key workouts. The paces I have prescribed are just a guide, but I like to put something down to show what I am trying to achieve in the workout. I do not expect to hit each and every one of these workouts for all the obvious reasons, but it gives you an idea on what I want to achieve in each phase.

Marathon Plan

Edited: 13/11/2012 at 21:44
13/11/2012 at 21:44
Y D wrote (see)

I have had a read back and you are all rubbish and should train more…..

Yep, hands up to that one.

I was so rubbish on Sunday that Hilly couldnt help but laugh at my efforts!


Right, wheres this marathon plan........?

13/11/2012 at 21:51
Duck, kinvara is great but I'm a forefoot runner and they're the most cushioned shoes I own.
2 min plank tonight! Hmpph
Edited: 13/11/2012 at 21:57
13/11/2012 at 22:10

YD - I'll need to spend a bit more time picking over that plan but I like it.  Am I correct in assuming the blanks in column C near the end mean that you're actually moving to two quality sessions per week instead of three, so that you can cope with the heavy volume and quality of the two sessions?  I'd like to have the discipline to do this myself; if anything I'll make a gesture towards it by putting less of an emphasis on the weekly club/track session in terms of effort, and use the Thursday long-tempo and Sunday long run sessions as the ones to really beast me in the latter stages, and for working around MP.

I've awarded myself a day off today, calves are still battered.  Not surprising really - I think the DOMS score is somewhere very close to marathon level but different.  Quads feel a lot better than I thought they would after a hilly run, but I think this is because the downhills were generally quite gradual, which meant lots of slapping of feet on tarmac - hence the calves - but not much hardcore braking.

I really want to concentrate on getting XC-fit now.  Apart from the club taking the league rather seriously this year, being a new Vet there are county and Southern champs to be contending.  And this could finally be the year when I do ''The National''.  Anyone up for Sunderland in February?

13/11/2012 at 22:39

YD - I got the gist of the plan but I kept getting a 'server error' after a few seconds. It seemed to cover all the bases though. I noticed that you commented against one of the MLRs something along the lines of keeping it easy to save the legs for the weekend, does that mean you were planning on pushing the other MLRs harder?

Phil - Yes, definitely planning for a visit to Sunderland. How could anyone not want to go to Sunderland?

Previously bookmarked threads are now visible in "Followed Threads". You can also manage notifications on these threads from the "Forum Settings" section of your profile settings page to prevent being sent an email when a reply is made.
Forum Jump  

RW competitions

RW Forums