The Middle Ground

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19/11/2012 at 13:11

However, although slower than 2010, it is actually a better WAVA % ... in fact, my best WAVA at any distance. Really happy in the end ... on the day I really thought sub-41 would be too tough but, in fact, it was pretty easy. If I can do that on low milege and too much food, then I'm pretty confident I will make up alot of ground in 2013.

Base training begins...

p.s. Marshalls removed all the clothing tied to the railings and put them into giant bags at the Town Hall ... I had to do a lot of asking around but, eventually, I did manage to find my Chester top. It would probably have been sensible to have moved the tops later on, at say 11:00,  rather than straight after the start. There were loads there and I bet most of them went to charity...

19/11/2012 at 15:45

NOSEMI - I DNS because of work, not injury. I have a race this Sat and hopefully another race lined up a week on Sat.

Hope its just a temporary setback Ratzer, still good work to get the same finishing position as your first outing when under the weather this time out.

RobT – hope things improve soon.

Dr Dan – good write up, and excellent work from the boy. Loved your ‘podium go’ shout out! It clearly worked, maybe you should take up motivational speaking  

19/11/2012 at 19:06

Glad you were happy Dr Dan. Well done Dr Dan Jr. Outstanding finish there!

Gell well soon Ratzer.

Rest night tonight - from running and work. Am shattered from too much driving, Aiming for a double tomorrow to make up for it!


19/11/2012 at 21:19

Curly, really top time, well done  wouldn't bet against you going under 90 at some point next year with more time on your plate (good news about work btw). Say well done to Magpie as well for his time!

It's interesting to see you say you've lost 10lbs, I have lost about the same since starting back training and I've seen an upturn in my times too. No coincidence!

Hilly, nice and consistant half splits there. A good, solid time despite the last few months!

Simon, sounds pretty crap. 800m TT perhaps not the best idea after the aborted prior run though....

A responsive training ethos sounds good. Fitting in the different elements into a 7, 10, 14 day etc cycle, albeit perhaps not on the 'same' day each time will end up with pretty much the same end product IMO.

cb, looking promising there.

Dan, great race. Well done, and highest WAVA sounds pretty good! 

9.5M this morning, didn't run with a watch or anything so no idea of pace. But it felt good, nice and flowing. 

19/11/2012 at 21:53

Dan, well done on the new WAVA.

Nice job at the XC considering, Ratzer.

Why no watch, Duck?

20/11/2012 at 06:34

Well done Dan on hitting a good solide time and for retrieving you Chester Marathon top

Well done on the XC Ratzer.  Hope you feel better soon!

Duck - running without a watch - are you ill?  I only wear a watch for sessions and races these days or if measuring a new course.  I prefer to go by my effort than pace.

Did my first track session last night since about April with 3 x 1200m @ current 10k pace.  Was supposed to be 4, but decided that having raced the day before 3 would suffice.  Running hard the day after a race is based on the running principles of Jim Alder apparently, so thought I'd see what it felt like  For those who don't know who he is below is an interview he did.

Calculator here: 

84.00% PhilPub (5K, 16:15, August)
82.20% PRF (HM, 1:18:41, September)
82.01% Hilly (10k, 40:55, November) 
81.43% BR (5K, 17:01, August)

78.83% Simon (4'26.73, August)
78.02% Duck (800m, 2'09.65, August)
77.71% SG, (10M, 57:09, October)
77.41% Wardi (5k, 19:51, October)
76.18% Ratzer (200m, 27.55, August)
75.58% YD (5K, 17:16, September)
73.52% Dr.Dan (10K, 40:27, Novmeber) 
70.78% Curly (5M, 34:12, September)

Out of date:
87.54% RobT (5K 16:27, July)
79.15% forever (5K, 20:41, July)
72.88% Mr V (5K, 17:42, July)
70.17% YoungPup (5k, 19:36, July)
68.70% Darola (5K, 20:48, July) 

Edited: 20/11/2012 at 06:38
20/11/2012 at 08:44

Didnt RobT have a different wava to add back in?

Sounds positive Hilly -  any negative effects today?I dont mind running hard on back to back days but I find two days after that my legs are bashed...swings/roundabouts for me, be interesting to see how it manifests for you if you do it a few times!

Hope you get out for your double today CB

Ratzer naught you for running at xc when not really well enough too! I dont think you can draw too many conclusions about your relative finishing position therefore!

Duck what phase are you in now then? 9.5m seems a long way for you these days so it be interesting to see how it fits in - sorry missed loads and probably where you outlined this!

Rest day for me today Just core work (done) and flexibility work (to do). Have a slighlty sore knee from the race on Sunday which is to do with the cycling and training so recovery run was a bit tough last night. My quads and hamstrings are very tight so if still an issue later in the week I will skip the xc on Saturday. Nothing major at the moment but do not want to run ny risks!

20/11/2012 at 08:52

Anybody here give blood? It will be My first time on thursday. Will i need to rest afterwards for a few days or is it not too bad? Anything i can drink, take or eat to help replenish my stocks? Quite nervous about it...

Plan to do some double days today and tomorrow and an early run thursday just in case, but im doing a mtb ride on saturday. 

EDIT I suppose recovery could be slower as well so maybe i shouldnt be pushing to hard before. 


Edited: 20/11/2012 at 09:08
20/11/2012 at 09:07

Sounds like a tough session the day after a race Hilly.

Good mileage without a watch Duck. I occasionally head out without a Garmina and it always feels good.

Hope the knee recovers soon Curly.

Tried a VO2 training session this morning. Aiming for 4x5 min. Stopped a minute into the second interval as I was struggling to maintain a very slow pace! Changed the session and did some 200m intervals instead, which weren't great but at least got me moving at a fairly fast pace.

20/11/2012 at 09:23

Curly - Be careful with knee especially after your great run

Hilly - How do you feel after back to back hard runs?

Duck  - No watch - never heard the likes of it did you leave your arm at home as well!!

Nosemi - I don't think you'll need more than a day at most infact I'm pretty sure you'll be fine if it's in the morning I think you'll be ok that night. You may feel light headed afterwards slight drop in blood pressure but a fit person should recover quite quickly.

Chubby Bloke - Shame about VO2 session but at least you got some speed work done

Dan  - Well done on the race and good WAVA performance

I did my first faster paced run for 3 weeks and felt ok throughout 9 miles at 6.45 pace and no after effects so need to continue building up again now. Hopefully MRI results due Friday will not show anything serious!!!!

Curly  you're right i did post a WAVA update from August 5k Capenhurst  87.45% I do also have a 10k from September 86.96% I think can I still be included in list!

20/11/2012 at 10:49

Simon, no need really. I knew the length of the route and roughly how long it would take. I've been doing it a fair bit recently on easy runs. Beats standing around in the cold waiting for signal as well!

Realised I'll be dropping way down the WAVA league for a while at the start of December. Recent best is 71.92% for my 3k (Saturday was 71.23%, which isn't a bad 3k - 5k conversion for me!)

Curly, yesterday will probably be one of the last 'long' runs, of around 75 minutes. I'll start cutting them back to the point where it'll probably be not much more than 60 minutes at the turn of the year. In pre-comp and comp it'll probably be only 50 minutes 

The long run is still sort of important - it's aerobic fitness of course which is important for the 800 and converting well from 400 - 800. 

cb, how long has it been since you did a vo2 max session? Might have been better to start off with structured fartlek or something similar - 60 sec on/60s jog rec for instance.

6*200 planned for this afternoon. 

20/11/2012 at 11:11

Dr Dan - You made a bit of a wild assumption by assuming that you were too far up the field because you were with the 'Barnsley 3' , nothing could have been further from the truth. Amazed that you tracked down the Chester top though!

I like the look of that WAVA table, can we put a moratorium on new entries for a little while?

Hilly - Back to back hard sessions certainly knock you into shape once the infrastructure is in robust shape. However,  I'm too lazy to do two back to back hard training days.....thats why I race so much

And Jim Alder is an interesting character - he still holds a world record or two. He was seen as a bit of a maverick, along with Ron Hill he was a bit of an Alf Tupper like character.

Amongst the things that stand out are:

1. He was happy to do his long runs much slower than was deemed 'correct' at the time.

2. He found carb loading was counter productive.

3. He found tapering almost pointless in most circumstances.

4. He ran everything to feel.

Sound familiar?

Curly - You should be proud of that stiffness, its the equivalent of a war wound

NOSEMI - From what I remember you'll be fine with easy runs for a couple of days and then should be able to run as normal even though it takes a good few more days to fully replace the lost blood. I wouldnt run on the same day after giving blood though, you can easily pass out or feel light headed at least.


10K @9:42/mile last night.

20/11/2012 at 11:12

Hilly – thanks for the link, I like reading about the old timers.

Good thinking on your feet this morning CB. You still got a useful session done when you could have just binned it.

NOSEMI – not given blood for a few years, I would just take it steady afterwards, don’t do any hard runs for a couple of days and make sure you eat some decent snap afterwards.

Nice return to harder running Rob.

Enjoy the speed this afty Duck

x-post prf -
steady with the speed work!

After a tough weekend and a rest day yesterday I have quite a strange tingling in both calf muscles this morning. It’s not DOMS, although its delayed but its not sore. I am choosing to be positive and believe my legs are going through an intense period of adaptation, and that by Saturday I will have 25 min 5 mile legs

Edited: 20/11/2012 at 11:15
20/11/2012 at 11:29
Y D wrote (see)

5 mile legs

Depending on where you attach the timing chip you could be on for a massive World Record!

20/11/2012 at 14:02

RobT  - it's self-service here ya know .... but seeing as you're WAVA Royalty, I'll do it for you (although I don't have a time). Good luck with the MRI.


Calculator here: 

87.45% RobT 5K, (XX:XX, August)
84.00% PhilPub (5K, 16:15, August)
82.20% PRF (HM, 1:18:41, September)
82.01% Hilly (10K, 40:55, November) 
81.43% BR (5K, 17:01, August)

78.83% Simon (4'26.73, August)
78.02% Duck (800m, 2'09.65, August)
77.71% SG, (10M, 57:09, October)
77.41% Wardi (5k, 19:51, October)
76.18% Ratzer (200m, 27.55, August)
75.58% YD (5K, 17:16, September)
73.52% Dr.Dan (10K, 40:27, November) 
70.78% Curly (5M, 34:12, September)

Out of date:
79.15% forever (5K, 20:41, July)
72.88% Mr V (5K, 17:42, July)
70.17% YoungPup (5k, 19:36, July)
68.70% Darola (5K, 20:48, July) 

20/11/2012 at 14:07

Dr Dan - Thanks feel happier now  my wife says I am a lazy sod when it comes to tech!! (5k - 16.28 Capenhurst) sorry PRF!!

20/11/2012 at 19:03

prf, those points do look rather familiar  I was betting on you putting a "© parkrunfan" next to them eventually.

Did 6*200 as it was getting dark! 29.4, 29.0, 28.2, 27.6, 27.3 (eased off as I reckoned I'd run the last 2 a bit quick), 28.6. Maybe a tad sluggish to begin with (it's been a week since I've run faster than 5:00/m pace aside from strides) but mid-27.xx is starting to feel pretty good now. Probably going to ease off on the gas on this kind of session a bit as I'm wary of dipping into glycolytic training this early. 

20/11/2012 at 20:32

Hilly, I've found two hard days in a row absolutely fine as long as I can get some recovery in, which I usually can over the weekend.

YD, have you been stretching post run?

Pretty nippy, Duck. I do envy your speed.

I managed an hour on a treadmill this evening without any knee problems. I figured that the controlled environment: even surface and the ability to run on a slight incline, would mean that my knee was not bothered, and apart from the tiniest of niggles at one point it was fine and it still feels good now. The hour was so so boring, but if I can manage an hour a day on the treadmill for now I'll be happy just doing that and gradually re-introducing road running.

20/11/2012 at 20:37

Ha ha Phil, it’s a 3 lap course so not sure on the logistics!

Good session Duck, mid 27s feeling good sounds like progress, though I will have to look glycolytic up so I know what you are talking about!

Simon - no I hardly stretch before or after a run. I do stretch my glutes, hips and ITB band away from sessions though.
Good news on the treadmill test, dont overdo it.

Tempo run for me tonight, 8.13miles with a 20 minute tempo @ 5:56/m. HR average of 165 for the 20 minutes which comes out at 83.33% HRmax.
Legs not playing ball, had to force the pace a bit, happy with HR/pace ratio though. I will take it easy now this week, I would like to have fresh legs for Saturday.

Edited: 20/11/2012 at 20:41
20/11/2012 at 20:53

Well forced YD! I wish my 200s this morning had been anywhere near that fast Duck!

PRF - I was thinking f the Barnsley 3 as I read his page!

The Duckinator wrote (see)

cb, how long has it been since you did a vo2 max session? Might have been better to start off with structured fartlek or something similar - 60 sec on/60s jog rec for instance.

I did a VO2 max session with shorter reps last week and it was ok. Today I wasn't hitting the paces I maintained in last weeks 4 mile tempo, so I figured it just wasn't happening today. I take your point though and I'm going to spend a few weeks concentrating on shorter reps (up to 400m)

6.1 gentle miles with the club tonight. It was warm!

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