The Middle Ground

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19/12/2012 at 08:12

I got taken out by a rampaging kayak. 3 weeks of pain - mind you I was borderline alcoholic at the time so the vodka probably helped to dull it!

Last day of work today. 4 hours of lunacy ahead.

Well done YP. Continuous and uninterrupted training is where it's at! (one day...)

19/12/2012 at 08:42

AWOL again.  (Who is it keeps saying that?)

Sprint session with the club last night and feeling very fast but not particularly fit.  LRs are up where they should be but supporting mileage is non-existent.  And now Christmas is coming.  Terrible joke, Wardi.  I'd like to hear yours, alehouse.

19/12/2012 at 09:52

Wardi - Tough luck fella. I took a blow to the ribs when falling on ice, on a ski holiday at Alpe D'Huez.  Horrible night's sleep for one night, then affected heavy breathing for a few days but then it died away to nothing.  I guess there are different degrees of damage, so hope it doesn't affect your Xmas too much.  If it does, drown it with whisky or eggnog.

Obviously there's the Star Wars joke about Darth Vader feeling Luke's presents, but it's funnier when you can do all the light saber actions and drag it out a bit. 

Club parlauf last night was fun, not that we came anywhere!  16 laps, teams of 2 (with the occasional team of 3.  Boo!) getting round in relay whichever way they saw fit.  We went with a popular tactic of 300m reps, which meant the resting partner either jogging back 100m or across the track.  So effectively for me it was a session of 11 x 300 in about 50-odd secs each with similar recovery.  Not a great deal of volume so we did some 1200s before the start; should've been x3 but I joined in late so did 2 x 1200 (200 rec) both in 3:48.

Just a single easy lunchtime run today, popping round my dad's this evening to put up the tree.  It's one of my traditional jobs along with providing cheese and making Scotch eggs for Christmas supper. 

19/12/2012 at 10:29

Wardi - sorry to hear of your woes! I've had cracked and bruised ribs in the past .... it's VERY painful. The last time was due to taking a punch in karate ... brusied not broken but nevertheless I was in agony for several days.

We're very unprepared for Xmas, so no festive jokes from me ... just had new windows put in and then a new floor in the kitchen/dinning room which was only finished last night (well, not quite finished actually, as both the window and floor people are returning tomorrow to tidy up a few snags). The result is that we are in utter chaos ... I'm likely to be very scrooge-like over the coming days. Bah Humbug and all that.

5.3M run to work today and will do the return trip tonight (I forgot that there was an Xmas drink/nibbles arranged by da'management for 3pm, so just a fruit juice for me ).

19/12/2012 at 11:00

Prostate update: I've got 5 or 6 weeks to get fitter before a two stage radiotherapy treatment on 5th and 15th Feb. Haven't found making a decision on the type of treatment easy but will have to live with whatever the consequences are! So if anyone else knows of anyone who has had brachytherapy, for better or worse, please let me know!

Off to buy a Christmas tree and then another walk before the next deluge.


19/12/2012 at 13:44

Hi all. What a lovely day it is here on the south coast...apparently it's going to get a lot wetter tonight into tomorrow and the picture up to and possibly including the Xmas period looks more in the way of flooding!

Not much running after last Tuesday due to the virus I mentioned. I did 2 mile on the treadmill on Saturday but it was very laboursome - the end result was leaving the gym less than 30 minutes after walking in.  

So last night was the first proper session completed in a while where I decided a quality tempo run at my club could do me good due to the benefit of being fully recovered and having fresh legs. I was very pleased with the end result with splits of 6:47, 6:28, 6:38, 6:42, 6:37 for 5 miles in a time of 33:12 in total. I definitely feel the fitness and extra mileage (pushing up towards 30 most weeks over the last few months) has helped with my base fitness and this was reflected in a quality tempo session last night. I was running at an effort where I felt that I could maintain my form and hold a short few word conversations. The key though was that I didn't feel uncomfortable and recovered quickly. I am now feeling quite positive in taking some form into the new year with the Stubbington 10k mid January. Looking to keep the miles easy now for the rest of the week unless I do a park run at Bushy Park as I am in Teddington on Saturday...if not I will try and do a quality session at some point over the weekend with reps faster than 5k pace.

Good to see everyone elses reports on doing well over the last week or so too.

PP - excellent XC result and enjoyable report. Shame in missing first place but sounds like an exciting race to have been part of!

YP - nice mileage for the year there. Sounds like you are building nicely for the new year. Will you be adding more speed work, etc in the run up to Chichester/Eastleigh?

Alehouse - More good progress there hope things continue in that vein too!

Wardi - that sounds very painful. I have bruised ribs from my ice-hockey playing days but that does sound quite a bit worse than what I experienced...and most of everyone else on this thread by the sounds of things!  Hope it clears up quickly and doesn't hinder the running more than for just a few weeks!

PRF - sounds like a good race. Out and back races always make me look in awe at the leaders who are passing the other way. Most notable for me was when running the D Day 10k in Portsmouth a few years ago when the leader was so far out in front that I thought he was a casual jogger running past on the promenade (he looked that comfortable)! It then dawned on me that he wasn't and soon afterwards realised he was more or less a sub-30 10k runner!

Good training by everyone else too that I have missed. Now to try and avoid the box of Roses and Quality Street staring at me on the next table...well one or ten won't hurt!


Edited: 19/12/2012 at 13:53
19/12/2012 at 13:58


Some really good training going on from everyone - quite a bit to comment on so a general "well done" is in order!

stevie - yes the big thing about 60s being slower is that you have to factor in acceleration. The 200 is actually, in terms of average speed, faster than both the 60 and 100 - after which the speed starts to decline.

Great race Phil, shame you couldn't outsprint him at the end.  The parlauf sounds like pretty good fun as well.

Shame your race didn't go quite to plan Mr V, mud is a right pain but is good for mixing things up!

prf, no hiding on a slow course if Andy can run that kind of time! Good solid clocking there and hopefully back to the 35'xx range in time for the smackdown!

YP, well done on 2012M for the year!

Dan, well done for getting training in while away. 

Wardi, how are you feeling now? Awful luck with the ice

After Sunday I had probably the most horrendous run of my life on Monday - I was so stiff and sore I was virtually walking, so took yesterday totally off. Felt fine this morning though so back into training with 2*4*400, decreasing rec between reps (90/80/70 sec) and 3 min between sets. Came out with 75.9, 73.3, 71.4, 70.0, 74.0, 70.5, 71.3, 68.3 in a really vicious wind. Aim of this kind of session is to start to transition into 1500 speed endurance but not heavily as such (it's semi-background stuff for 4/8 running so I'm going to be running plenty of it through early-mid spring). Felt good, quite strong & got the breathing going but not dying with oxygen debt. 

Two other things:

  1. Results are in from Sunday and I finished 9/22 in the LJ - wava 55.08% which is higher than my first HM!
  2. I may have entered a duathlon 
Edited: 19/12/2012 at 14:01
19/12/2012 at 20:29

WJH.. that's a very decent tempo run without a number on!  Good stuff.

Nice sessions Duck & PP.

Best of luck with the treatment Alehouse.  The deluge started here at 6pm and tomorrow looks wet throughout!  I actually mowed the lawn this morning as the grass seems to have kept growing when it normally stops at this time of year!

Saw the Doc tonight and he couldn't be sure if I have a broken rib - at worst it will be a small crack.  He reckoned an x-ray was a waste of time as it doesn't make any difference to the treatment.  I now have a prescription for a lot of Tramadol painkiller tablets, I will see how good these are before trying to run again.  I am somewhat more optimistic as the pain has reduced dramatically in the last day or so without the pills.  The acid test - picking the cat up - I can now manage whereas on Monday this was impossible!  I can also numb any remaining niggle with Christmas cheer of course. 

Edited: 19/12/2012 at 20:40
19/12/2012 at 21:19

MIDDLE GROUND WAVA LEAGUE (September-December) Calculator here: 

86.96% Sir RobT (10K, 34:28, September)
83.79% PhilPub (5,000m, 15:55.9, September)
82.34% Hilly (10M, 66:45, December)
82.20% PRF (HM, 1:18:41, September)

79.26% Duck (60m, 8.1, December)
77.71% SG, (10M, 57:09, October)
77.41% Wardi (5K, 19:51, October)
76.52% YD  (5M, 28.20, November)
73.52% Dr.Dan (10K, 40:27, November)
72.49% dav3c (5k, 20:11, September)
72:09% Minni (5m 35:11, November)
71.43% MrV (5M 29.52 November)
70.78% Curly (5M, 34:12, September)

59.56% CB (10K, 46:20, December)

35.8% BR (Dewsbury parkrun 5K, 39:30, September) ... relegated by Mrs BR

0% Simon (0K, 00:00) - waaay too busy eating pies and blowing his nose
0% Ratzer (0K, 00:00) - reading science papers and building up to a 5 metre run
0% YoungPup (0K, 00:00) - not feeling quite young enough to enter a race
0% Dash (0K, 00:00) - busy breeding his prize Xmas turkey somewhere in Norfolk

Thought I'd throw in a quick entry before clocking over to the big half century tomorrow ... then all I need to do is run the same time and grab the extra 0.54 WAVA goodness

19/12/2012 at 21:44

Anyone seen the nonsense that is the ASICS Marathon schedules the super 6ers are supposed to be using? No bloody miles! Mental.

CB – enjoy your time off, same to you BR and Hilly.

Waves at Ratzer

Massive foodie kudos points if you can make a scotch egg yet keep the yolk runny PP

Just run drunk Dr Dan! Good to see you getting some consistent consistency in with the comutes.

Sorry no help on the treatment Alehouse, good that you seem to be making excellent progress walking.  

Nice tempoing WHJ

Very bloody fast 400s Duck!

– good news.

Good to see you popping in Dave, many happy returns.

12miles @ 7:56/m in horrid filthy cold, windy and wet conditions. Ran the whole route on the roads yet I still got dirty feet. Didn’t enjoy that one bit!

19/12/2012 at 21:49

So with all the great running that is happening (note the opportunistic buttering up), I’d appreciate any advice re marathon pace target(s) for Brighton next year. I used a cut-down 16/24 weeks of Daniels for Brighton this year, with max 50mpw, aiming at 8:00 pace / 3:30. All went to plan in training / racing and 7:56 pace / 3:28 resulted with pretty consistent mile times and minimal fade (

For Brighton 2013 I’m i/ sticking with the max 50mpw, ii/ doing the full 24 week plan, iii/ was doing 40mpw going into the plan, cf. 25mpw last time, iv/ am at 20:30 ish for 5k and 1:33 for HM. His tables suggest this is approx. VDOT 49, equating to approx. 7:25 pace / 3:14. A pace of about ½ a minute faster than last time seems a big step up. Is this unrealistic? Should I aim lower … 3:20, 3:25: Any guidance for picking a realistic pace appreciated.

19/12/2012 at 21:55
Y D wrote (see)

Good to see you popping in Dave, many happy returns.

Feeling a little guilty, as I got lured away to   

20/12/2012 at 06:19
Morning all,

I had a really enjoyable run last night - and it made me think about something which I would be really interested in the collective view on.

How long does it take for a period of training to work its way through to improved fitness and improved performance? Does it depend on the individual and type of training being done? Is there any science behind the answer?

I've always thought it took about 2 weeks before you would get to see the benefits of any particular run, or block of training, but I've also heard people say it can take up to 6 weeks.

What do you reckon?

The reason I'm asking is that I did 9 miles last night as part of my commute home, and I felt great My legs felt really strong, I had loads of spring and bounce in my step, it felt like my cadence was good, my breathing was really comfortable, and I ended up doing 9miles @ 08:15/ mile average, which included 4 miles @ sub 08:00/mile.

I know that for many of you that pace is nothing more than a jog, but it is a lot quicker than my normal easy pace, and last night felt fairly easy....
20/12/2012 at 08:15


Duck, how come you may have entered a duathlon?  You were drunk and you don't remember?

forty five mins for me last night in the endless rain, which still hasn't ended this morning and I fancy doing a hill run.

YP, about six weeks for initial aerobic improvement, about twelve weeks to really see an aerobic difference.  Anaerobic changes involve a lot more than mitochondria increase, and something like sprinting could improve in two weeks due to neuromuscular adaptation which continues to about six weeks before you start to see the effect of increases in strength.

"YD, yoohoooo!"  *waves excitedly*

20/12/2012 at 08:38

Happpy Birthday, Dave

YP, I've always found the x weeks figure strange. I mean, I'm training pretty much everyday anyway, so I've almost always done something x weeks ago, which would mean I should see an improvement every day.

Having said that I do notice sudden jumps in fitness. They tend to happen when I've had a day off a couple of days before and had a couple of good sleeps, which I suppose helps consolidate any training I have done.

20/12/2012 at 08:45

Good question YP and good answer Ratzer! My first 10k pb this year came after 6 weeks of increased mileage, and I spent most of that time struggling with pace, and thinking it would never come together for a decent 10k, but somehow it all clicked after 6 weeks.

Promising improvement Wardi!

Nice session Duck. Duathlon? You don't see many ducks on bikes.

The Parlauf sounds fun but tough Phil. Hope you had fun with the tree. All of our decorations  start at 3 ft (out of reach of Little Miss CB!)

WJH good to hear that you're on the mend.

humbug indeed Dr Dan.

Club Christmas party tonight. It's after a run and on a school night (event eh other teachers at club don't finish til tomorrow) so I'm expecting a short one and taking the car. In other news Little Miss CB is full of cold so the first day of the holidays is likely to involve a lot of cuddling on the sofa watching CBeebies!

20/12/2012 at 08:49

dav 3c - can't help with paces, but I'm a true believer of doing the training with sessions and your pace will find itself.  Put the miles in, do the specific sessions and only nearer the time will you a realistic idea of what pace to attempt.

Duck - you'll be telling us you're going to focus on triaathlon next;-)  Enjoy the duathlon training!

YD - I've only read the sub 3 guy's thread and to be fair with Steve Smythe mentoring him I think you'll find the training will increase.  He has quite a track record for success!

Wardi - glad things are feeling a tad better!

alehouse - best of luck with the treatment!

Nice session WHJ!

A lingering sore throat here, so doing little.  It's that time of year again where the bugs are out in force!  I have written a kind of marathon plan for myself though, but it's a very flexible plan  that consists of long runs, LT and pure speed sessions, done progressively each week.  Should see me reach a marathon in some kind of shape

20/12/2012 at 15:19

Where are these ASICs plans? I can't see them anywhere.

20/12/2012 at 16:55

Simon - I think you need an `app' or some such bollocks.  And on the `stuck on a plateau' thread the guy gave out his plan, and then his mentor said it's only meant to be four weeks at a time.  However, yes they are the most pitiful plans I've seen.  Yet again a vehicle to sell an Asics product, rather than bring on a runner in any meaningful fashion.  Reading between the lines of the Steve Smythe thread, he's going to mentor in his own way anyway with an obligatory nod towards the schedules.

Wardi - I fell awkwardly 3 years ago and it took 6 weeks out of me.  Even when I could run I could not run hard as my lungs would not expand to give maximum benefit.

20/12/2012 at 18:19

YD - You're tempted by the approach then? I hope you're not planning on doing more than 50mpw for your first marathon......

Have I got the wrong end of stick with the Asics threads? I thought the idea was to make it a good read for as wide an audience as possible by having discussions around the training being advised/followed?

It appears that you just have to accept that 25-30 mpw is ideal and that over 50mpw will lead to your legs falling off in catastrophic fashion.


Edit - And I hope Duck is around....this is post 222219, 3 to go!

Edited: 20/12/2012 at 18:21
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