The Middle Ground

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22/01/2013 at 22:12

Duck – nice try, but if you are going to get anywhere in this coaching business you need to get a better line in cutting sarcasm. Once you have that then you can start your own threads off.

There has been a bit of a thaw round here today, so I decided to get some MP in while the roads were clear, still some slush on the paths so had to take it easy going round corners + there was a cold wind tonight, but overall conditions weren’t all that bad compared to what we have had recently.  
14.13M W/ 10M in 64:44 or 6:28/m average. Average HR for the run was 153 bmp or 78% maxHR. I only hit 80% in mile 8 and 10. Maybe MP should be a bit faster, either way that’s over 50 miles in the last 4 days, so I think my legs are ready for a rest day now.
Feels like I am in proper Marathon training now

22/01/2013 at 22:16
Got my Chichester number. Really looking forward to road racing again. Just heard that the Southern XC is likely to be rescheduled for 2nd Feb. Bugger! Won't be doing that then.

More hills this evening! Track is completely covered in untrodden snow so our improvised interval session was on the road around Hilly Fields. Worked out as 12 reps (6x650m one direction, 6x500m back) with 90s recovery. 11.7 miles total. So less volume and not quite as hilly as last week but certainly quicker. (Didn't bother taking splits as paces would've been fairly meaningless and I doubt we'll have to do the session again.) Still, beats the treadmill I was contemplating at one stage.
22/01/2013 at 22:19
X-post. Good session YD. Getting out there for 10 MP in these conditions is a good mojo indicator! Plenty of time to worry about nailing the pace.
22/01/2013 at 22:28

Cheers Phil, I agree, I wont fret too much on the pace but I might turn the MP tempos up half a notch or so. I think 78% average over 10 miles is a touch on the low side.

Good that you got a session in tonight, still plenty benefits in that type of session, especially at this stage.

22/01/2013 at 22:44

Good stuff YD

You make  10@ 6:28 sound almost like a comfort zone run, you're in a strong position.

Phil - Have they actually given an official reason for the postponement?


23/01/2013 at 08:42

YD – It’s a good position to be in when sub 6.30 pace feels on the easy side.

Phil – Good work on getting an outside session in. You don’t seem to have missed any quality stuff during this crappy weather.

Abandoned session of 800s for me yesterday as the leg felt pretty sore again. I don’t think running in the snow has helped, plus it’s made all sorts of other bits sore or achy as well! Hopefully it won’t disrupt training too much but it has been hanging around for a couple of weeks now. Motivation is pretty low at the moment but hopefully once the niggles clear up and conditions improve I’ll get my mojo back.

23/01/2013 at 09:52

Cracking session YD, especially in these conditions ... I think that 80-83% maxHR is usually closer to that sub-LT boundary, especially when your in mara training, so it probably was on the easy side of MP as you suggested. Looks like you'd have no problem getting into that zone witrhout drifting into lactate production. I'll be starting on these kind of sessions as soon as I can ... plan was next week when I'd recovered from BM ... still the plan as long as it thaws. It will take a little while to build back up to 10M though!

I managed a hurried escape from work yesterday for 4.3 miles of tentative running on ice ... today is another double commute.

Agree about the achyness MrV ... despite the slow pace, I'm finding this ice-running tough work on the legs - but I'm sure there's more bang for the buck running in these conditions.

Edited: 23/01/2013 at 09:54
23/01/2013 at 10:24

prf - This is the most definitive info I've had re: the Southern. One of our guys (who won his first England XC vest running the McCain Cross Challenge in Cardiff last week and came 4th!) got in touch with City of London and reported back:

"Just had a call from Paul Maskell at City Council.
He is in charge on running events on the heath and has been in charge of facilities and staff on Hamstead Heath for all the cross country events ran there in the last 15 years. He said that on Monday he got in touch with SEAA with the recommendation that the event should not be run in his opinion due to the current conditions there at present, and SEAA took on board his recommendation to cancel. He says it's not just the snow but the amount of wet weather there has been in the last few months. He lives by the heath and says you can not walk up parliament hill now the snow has thawed. He said there were a number of injuries at the weekend from people sledging and they could not get ambulance crews to the scene of the accidents. And also the car park is under water. He also said he is annoyed that the council is being made out to be the ogre in all of this as it is SEAA's responsibility to communicate the situation more clearly than just one sentence on their website, and to also get in touch with clubs. I mentioned that I was concerned that this might be a trend of things to come. He said that the council is very keen for cross country events to carry on being run there, and they are big supporters of cross country and have put a lot of money into them over the years. He said this cancellation is not a trend for the future, it is just simply due to how bad it is there currently."
**stop press**: And now they're talking about rescheduling for 16th Feb.  One week before the National (and a day before Brighton HM).  I can't do that either.  Arse!  

MrV - I've had some niggle problems exacerbated trying to run in snow.  Doesn't do anything for your running gait.  You've been baking a decent cake recently, I'm sure it'll come back swiftly.  

I'm thinking about a long-tempo this evening but not full blown double-digit MP.  Probably two 3.3M loops progressive, first lap MP then second lap with whatever I've got left. Isle of Dogs is pretty snow-free now.

...edit... D'oh!  I meant tomorrow evening, of course.    Tonight will be a 7 mile plod and some washing. And something to go with black bean sauce.

Edited: 23/01/2013 at 10:28
23/01/2013 at 10:55

Phil - Thats interesting because I had a good chat with Paul Maskell and, like he says, he seems very enthusiastic to have running events on the heath. He is not some out of touch office bound council jobsworthl. He was an important part, along with Dave Bedford, of getting the parkrun started there.

It would appear from that that it isnt really a case of saying the xc course is unrunnable, just that the practicalities around holding the event look a bit dodgy.

23/01/2013 at 11:54

Mr V – as PP was saying, you have baked a decent cake, don’t fret, relax and it will all come back swiftly enough. You are right the snow does cause different aches and pains than usual. I have felt it a bit up the side of calf this week, just soreness really.
I am up North this weekend and depending on family schedules I might be parkrunning. If you want to meet up and do a tempo run round a parkrun let me know. I want to tick Whitley Bay or Riverside off my list, Whitley Bay is favourite if the thaw has started as Riverside could be soggy with the grassy sections.

Cheers Dr Dan , there was very little drift suggesting as you say that I was working in the sub lactate zone. I think I could afford to push these sessions into the 80 – 82% ball park.
Would you not jump in with 10 miles in the 77 – 80% zone and then increase intensity once drift has been minimised, or do you get the intensity right and then increase length?

King Prawn Stir fry tonight Phil, Mrs YD isn’t keen on Black Bean so we are going down the sweet chilli route.  

23/01/2013 at 12:51

YD – Yep I’m sure you are right. I need to make sure I’m firing for Dewsbury! I would have been up for some parkrun/tempo action but I’m back in North Yorkshire this weekend.

23/01/2013 at 12:52

YD ... I'll start of with 5-6 miles at sub-LT HR (81%) ... I expect that the pace will start to slow at that HR after this mileage. When I can hold it steady, I'll up the mileage bit by bit over a few weeks. When I can do 10M regularly, I'll start to build up a 2nd session in a  similar way. I've jumped into the 10M distance before and ended up feeling very over-trained (but had very good CV results).

23/01/2013 at 13:57

Fair enough Mr V, parkrun isn’t a guarantee, I might end doing a long run on Sat AM and then heading up, its not been decided yet. 

Dr.Dan wrote (see)
I've jumped into the 10M distance before and ended up feeling very over-trained (but had very good CV results).

I am glad you said that Dr Dan, it’s a good reminder that I don’t want to be smashing my legs with weekly 10 mile tempos. I am ok with the volume, but the volume and intensity combo does me in, and its easy to get carried away with the good CV results as you say.

23/01/2013 at 14:43

Yep, Southern XC rescheduled for 16th Feb.  I can't see that being very well attended, being one week before the National.

YD - fair enough. Nice combo! Waitrose special offers have dictated that my black bean stir fry will include sugar snap peas and green beans, and be accompanied by a thick pork chop.

I've progressed the exercise bike 2 x 20mins tempo session and it's getting pretty hard work. Did the second 10mins of the 2nd half on the next level up (~240W to ~260W) which saw my HR increase from 149 to 158; still lower than MP HR but must be pretty damn close to effective threshold as far as cycling is concerned.  Evening off running as I'm having to help my mate celebrate his birthday.

23/01/2013 at 22:01
Where is the thaw??

Did 12 this morning and managed a fabulous pace of 9.37. I agree with Dan, it is so hard on the legs. My ITB is complaining. Fresh snow is great and compacted snow is great, but we have this horrible sandy textured snow that sends you in all directions with each foot fall.

Really hope it goes soon, it is causing havoc. Jack's school keeps closing early (and was closed full stop yesterday), so I have to try to get him to the other kids' school - usually he gets back after I'm home with them. Impossible to use the wheelchair in the snow, he's far too heavy to carry, so I've been using a sledge, but he has no balance and doesn't understand to hold on... And then I can't pull it across sections where people have cleared the path. Fun times, ha.

Good resistance training though

Phil - you celebrate a lot of birthdays
23/01/2013 at 22:04
Not to mention yesterday when I turned around to check on him and discovered a trail of both gloves, his hat and both wellies that he'd taken off and chucked over the side. Kids!
24/01/2013 at 08:42


Good MP session from YD - nice work at this stage of the game. Having thoughts of setting mp a touch faster perhaps?

Hope Mr V gets his legs in order for Dewsbury!

Phil I cant do the date either, looks like 0 attendance from my club women at the moment (we did have 6 or 7 down I believe).

Stevie not doing wokingham as I am working on Sundays at the moment, so taking a day off means losing income and finding someone to cover. Am doing maidenhead but as an MP run.

Went to club on Tuesday and we did 4 x 6 mins off 60secs recovery, but on snowy grass so done in spikes. Not bad - felt like I was keeping up with the group for the first time. Didnt get up to 5k pace for the last rep as asked by Moraghan (more like 10k), but the surface was quite bumpy and had a section of very boggy/ice grass half way through. Was definitely working hard. Encouraging stuff for next Sunday I think.

14 miles @ 8:59 last night, ice all but gone here over yesterday so was able to run freely for the first time in ages Some funny niggles from all the snow running though

MP run tomorrow, but today is a nice rest day.


24/01/2013 at 14:26

Quiet on here today.

Phil - Good birthday bash?

Kelly - Sounds like its been difficult for you . I agree with the annoying Newcastle conditions. Does the legs no favours at all.

Curly - Nice to get the session in when conditions are tough. You can't worry about the pace on grass too much - its the effort that counts!

I managed to blow the cobwebs away a little on my run today. Back in North Yorkshire and thankfully there are plenty of ice free country roads here. So I did 12 and a bit miles with 9.2 at MP. Average pace of 6.34 (for the MP bit) on a very hilly route. Happy enough with that though my leg is complaining now. Can't see the physio until 2 weeks time either so better get the rolling pin out 

24/01/2013 at 16:46

Thinking about it Curly. In the cardiovascular sense the effort was comfortable, but I have a lot of work to do toughening my legs up if I am going to make it happen over 26.2. My legs have grumbled quite a bit since the session, though it did come off a period of high mileage.
Good to see lots more excellent training being reported by you

Fitness is obviously in fine fettle if you are running 6:3x’s on hills Mr V
I am not parkrunning on Saturday now, I will be long running round here early on Sat morning and then heading up North afterwards. Don’t suppose you fancy meeting up to run a 21miler do you? I am planning a nice route from Thirsk to Kilburn, round the Kilburn 7 route and back again. Loads of nasty hills in that route…..

Good to see you actually posting about a run Kelly, I hope this means you are just getting a period of consistent consistency going.

24/01/2013 at 17:08

Interesting to hear of the 'snow niggles', I think they're pretty much inevitable when the running action is changed so much. Its a bit like when you start doing XC again, things twinge in funny places...

Kelly - Nothing wrong with 9:xx s, the training pace of champions

Curly - A good couple of days strengthening work there... you'll be flying when the strength from the snow running feeds through.

Mr V - Tasty session there. 6:3x s on a hilly route sounds like you must be in shape for going going close to sub 60 for 10 miles? Thirsk isnt too far away.....

YD - That 21 miler will set you up nicely for Dewsbury

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