The Middle Ground

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31/01/2013 at 10:01
Simon Edward wrote (see)


Mr V, if you can handle the boredom then getting hold of a flotation belt and doing some water running is pretty good - I did it last year when I was having shin problems and I think it's the best cross training you can do for running.

OK, I forgot about aqua running, but Simon's right!  I've not tried it but I know someone who had to spend a long time out and kept in pretty good shape with this.

Simon Edward wrote (see)


I'd be interested to know the difference (both pace and HR) for those who have run both marathons and 10 milers/HMs


I'll let you know in 11 weeks.  Based on my current HM pb, McMillan would have my paces down as - 10 mile: 5:27 / HM: 5:33 / Mara: 5:51

I find McMillan is a bit aggressive on the shorter distance predictions, but then there's not an awful lot of difference between 10M and HM so that's not going to be very far out.  The relationship between HM and marathon is more interesting though.  Recent discussion on the sub-3 thread suggested a lot of people's mara pace ~15secs/mile slower than HM, although some of the real mileage monsters are closer to 10s.  The only meaningful figures I've got to go on from experience are my HM/marathon from 2008 which were 5:47 and 6:15, although the marathon was run a little conservatively and to target, so maybe could've been closer to 6:12 or so for an equivalent effort - still 25s/mile slower.  All I know at the moment is that I'd be absolutely delighted with HM + 20s/m which would give me 2:34.

Re: HR, I didn't wear a monitor for the last HM but typical values I've seen in the past are - 10 miles: 176 / HM: 174 / Mara: 168 (...87% / 86% / 83% max)

Edited: 31/01/2013 at 10:06
31/01/2013 at 11:08

Nice stats and thoughts Phil.

Last year my 10m to HM relationship was 5.50 to 5.57. But then the Half was Feb, and the 10miler October so a fair time gap.

Would have been interesting to have done Gosport in Nov a month after CP 10miler to truly compare...

However, have a half very shortly, so would be pleased to see a similar 7 second deficit from October's 5.42 paced 10miler!

What you after at Chichester Phil? Weather pending. A crank at sub 33?

31/01/2013 at 11:19

My recent 10 / half was 7:05 and 7:07 four weeks apart I believe, but I suppose that suggests I can do better for 10 miles rather than anything else interesting...

Just back from 12 miles which takes me to 266 miles for the month and 162 miles on the bike too. Not bad


31/01/2013 at 11:46

SG - yep, sub-33 would be ace.  Depending on conditions I may be happy just to beat my 33:25 PB and/or win some more vouchers towards my next pair of trainers.    You?

Curly - Excellent stats! So when's the duathlon?    Assuming I don't skip my tempo-lite this evening, my mileage figures should be 232 / 298 which is a pretty good mix.

31/01/2013 at 11:53

Nice! I have a few more bike miles this evening, but frankly I dont enjoy cycling and my bike is so heavy. No chance of me taking it up as a sport I can tell you, but I am getting faster on it at least (which means more time at home relaxing before work ).

Phil looking at last years result you have be looking for something in the Vets prizes right?

I'd be very happy with top 25 women, if its windy I'll race to position rather than time.

31/01/2013 at 12:20

Phil, aim is always to pb.

However, I know that a 10k can quickly unravel, especially if the wind is up.

But all being well, taking the 35.20 pb down at least, and going perfectly getting somewhere near what the 10mile times suggest.

Curly, nice stats indeed. If only i could steal your 10m to HM transition

The women's winner last year looked a tiny little thing, 33mins I think? Pretty darn sharp!

Had a late night last night, and for time reasons I had to squeeze my 10miler in at 7am today! Might not look ideal, but went pretty well. Better than lunchtime 10milers on working days I think.

No runs now until Sat.

Edited: 31/01/2013 at 12:23
31/01/2013 at 13:01

Curly - Last year's results are interesting.  Given the general standard the V40 winning time was a little soft.  (Although I'd love to beat a bloke called Zippy!!  )  Stating the bleeding obvious, it depends who turns up on the day, but the year before, 33:07 was only good enough for 3rd V40.  I'll have to do some stalking on the start line.

Did anyone see this from runbritain?  Not surprisingly Chichester is up there as a popular place for running fast times, but it looks like an interesting resource generally, for planning future 10k and HM PB attempts.

31/01/2013 at 13:22

Nice link Phil.

Not surprised to see the Leeds 10k on there. Chap I know took 40ishsecs off his pb, which is a good chunk for anyone who's been running for years as it is, but when he was already at 30.42, and is now 30.02, pretty damm spell binding!

31/01/2013 at 13:54

YP, Phil, thanks for the feedback. Essentially someone I know won a free marathon training plan from a website and was questioning why the long runs were so fast, and had the 85% figure quoted.

This is of course, skipping over the low mileage (the next longest run aside from the Sunday long runs is 8 miles), inappropriate quality sessions (12*300 for marathon training anyone?), and lack of long runs (just one 20+). I've heard of the P&D figure but wasn't sure if that was recommended more for experienced marathoners or not. In any case it sounds too fast IMO.

Mr V - awful news!  Hope it's not as bad as that.

Great January by the sounds of it Curly. I'm on 120 for the month.

Yesterday was 2*4*200 at the track, 90/75/60s rec & 4 mins between sets. Really windy at times and not consistent wind either!

While I completed the session well, If I'm honest it was too hard a session for this time of the season - session structure was ok but I ran the reps too hard. Wasn't on my back at the end gasping for air, but was tying up in the final 50m of the final rep. Ho hum, live and learn - one session this intense shouldn't make a big difference, but I'll need to make sure I'm not doing all my sessions like this for another month and a bit - that's a surefire way to peak way too early.

Session came out as 32.3, 30.8, 30.4, 29.8, 30.1, 29.8, 28.7, 29.9. Pleased I can hit these sorts of splits in January though!

Then 7.3 @ 7:55/m today, tired by the end.


31/01/2013 at 14:36

Yep saw that lazy arse Phil, Abbey Dash (in Leeds, not to be confused with the Leeds 10k Stevie) It has always been a fast 10k along with Ribble Valley 10k. Conditions for the AD this year were perfect, which goes someway to explain the very fast times, you had to be running 33 something to get in the top 100, I think it was 34mins ish for top 100 in previous years.
Stevie, I don’t want you to enter the AD this year as you will spoil it with bad weather and your excuses

Sorry to hear that Mr V, not sure what’s worse a stress fracture or some kind of muscle pull. Either way I hope you get some answers.

Bliddy quick session that Duck

Agreed that 85% Threshold is fast for a long run, it sounds like a session pace, MP+10 – 15 seconds or something like that. I will do one or two longer tempos at this pace when I get more Marathon specific phase, but its not what I will be running the bulk of my long runs at.

Heart Rates: 10mile PB Dec: 175,   HM PB Sept: 172 (90% & 88% max.
I would like to think I could run a HM at 90% and 91-92% for a 10 miler on the right day.
Paces are 5:54/mi and 6:11/m, the HM is soft, I think I could run close to 6:00/m for a HM now.
As for Marathon, McMillan says I should run 6:21/m for a Marathon. My target is 2:50 or 6:29/m. However the other day I ran 10miles at 6:28/m for only 78% HR with no drift. Food for thought on that front…..

Not been doing much mileage here, letting my legs freshen up a bit this week after 4 tough weeks. I did the club 2 mile time trial last night, one mile out round a lamppost and back.
Splits were 5:28 and 5:40, guess which one was into the wind! Then after that did 4 x 0.25m with a minute recovery, all around 5:20 – 5:30 pace. Nice to get some quicker running in without it being a monster session, not sure ill get chance to run that quick on Sunday!

31/01/2013 at 14:47

Phil/Simon – Thanks for the advice. I see there is actually an aqua running session at my local pool this evening so may go and give it a try.

YD – Your training seems to be going really well. Was looking forward to seeing what you would run on Sunday but I guess the wind may put paid to anything super speedy.

Duck –Very speedy. I think you are going to have a very good year.

31/01/2013 at 14:57

That was a long readback.  Snow caused issues, but the last week has been pretty good, except for yesterday's effort which was supposed to be 18 miles then hit a small roadbump at 14 miles when a bridge over a railway was closed for rebuilding.  I went into the field (water and mud came up to my shins) next to the bridge but couldn't get to the track so jogged back a half mile to the next road and through to the previous bridge.  Also closed.  This time though I wasn't going to be defeated by the barbed wire and the reen (flooded), nor the brambles on the banks up to the main South Wales line (Cardiff-London) and crossed over the tracks (unless you're police reading this in which case I didn't) then through similar obstacles into a field on the other side (water and mud came up to my shins).  Only now I was on the wrong side of a wider, flooded reen from the road, and had to do a quarter mile around the field before I got to a gate and bridge.  By this time my legs were rutted so I took the shortcut to my Ma's and got a lift home.

Curly and YD, some major mileage!  Duck, fast!  Alehouse, nice to see you progressing.  PP, you simply deserve mention.

WJH, I was marshalling at Lliswerry.  Had I been running I'd'a' been targetting 53 but probably only fit enough for 55.  I've decided that results are bonuses now.  Given the time scheduling difficulties of when I'm allowed to be ill in my plan and when my company can decide to send me to Moscow or Sao Paulo, I just train when I can and cross my fingers that I'll be able to stay fit for life.  Anyway, short distance stuff is so much more fun!

So, from Po10 for last year:

10M 65:22     65:17 25       Llanelli Llanelli 10 19 Feb 12                         HM 85:40     85:30 68     24 Llanelli Llanelli Waterside Half Marathon 4 Mar 12 Mar 3:04:03     3:03:32 1474     325 London Virgin London Marathon 22 Apr 12

 10M pace 6:31: HMP 6:31: MRP 7:00.  2 weeks between 10M and HM at same location (both on the coastal path).  6 weeks to M.

31/01/2013 at 15:25

YD, good clarification old son, knowing my luck I'd turn up for the Leeds 10k, which is probably some massively hilly offroader, and instead of 100 under 34, there's be 34 undr 100

There can be no excuses this weekend, not with such a heavy thread presence

31/01/2013 at 15:53

No excuses for me, just a catalogue of mitigating factors to be added to the BS Calc Stevie…….

As for the Leeds 10k, I don’t know for sure, but imagine its one of those charity races with the mass aerobics warm up’s, IPOD’s and D shaped drinks bottles a plenty!

31/01/2013 at 18:23
Simon - that made me laugh. I was actually on the verge of tears on this morning's run.

My son goes to a physical therapy session instead of school on a thurs morning at Chester le Street. Those who know, my only running option is out along the A167, then back. Quite high up, pretty exposed, 4m pretty much down hill and obviously reversed. I was being lashed in the face with freezing cold rain, running uphill, against the wind, still had 3m to go and couldn't really relax the pace as I had to get back for my son - I did more out loud swearing (Curly, it helped ), cursing why I do this every day, often twice, for what??!!, why do I bother, can I not just have one day of about 7 degrees and a gentle breeze??? Ha. It was grim at the time, but I've put it into perspective now.

275m for me, which has been a miracle as the last two years were 73 and 93, also lasting until around April/March with injuries. Fingers crossed this year! Bizarrely, I'm still not feeling fit, so hope to see some reward in a few months.

Good luck to all the racers at the weekend.
31/01/2013 at 18:25
Mr V - where is the injury? Sorry to hear, I know it sucks.
31/01/2013 at 21:38

kelly - Moaning about the weather but still clocking up 275 miles!  Double hard! You'll remember that run, one sunny day in March when the birds are singing...

Ratzer - Ha!  What a palaver!  Lots of character-building running going on lately.

An uneventful tempo-lite as planned this evening.  Wind had died down a tad but still a bit breezy. 6M w/ 3M @ 5:35. Shame I didn't get to log max HR cos it sure as hell wasn't 203 as the Garmin suggested.

Edited: 31/01/2013 at 21:39
31/01/2013 at 22:50

Kelly keep chucking in months like that and you'll be fit in no time Awesome mileage and sweary words today.

Ratzer you'd enjoy herts hobble by the sounds of it 27ish miles of getting lost and unlost through flooded fields and over styles!

Phil Magpie finds it worse for spurious readings in the wind for some reason.

Speaking of Magpie he may be joining YP  on the easy run on Sunday as he has a small but real thigh tear, more than likely from Bushy on Saturday then made worse by 21 miles and our speed session on Tues Hopefully it will recover in time, not just because he is in shape for a huge pb, but because I need to beat him in a road race

31/01/2013 at 22:57

Nice mileage for January, everybody. I managed 215, which I'm pretty happy with considering I give up a day a week for the gym. I'll hopefully hit about 250 in Feb and March and then it'll drop right down.

Showing good speed endurance there, Duck

Phil, do you find your HRM plays up a bit more in cold weather?

Kelly, with that sort of work I am sure the fitness will show through soon enough.

A good session tonight, and the best pacing I've ever managed.

5 x 300 @ 1500 (goal 51") with 2' recovery. 50.53, 50.30, 51.00, 51.08, 50.90.

3 x 200 @ 800 (goal 31.5") with 2'30" recovery: 31.53, 31.55, 31.48

2 x100 @ 400 (goal 14.5") with walk back recovery: 14.18, 14.68

the 400-paced stuff wasn't great, but I feel like I'm still learning to run controlled at that speed. Really happy with how the 300s felt and it gives me a lot of confidence to run sub 4:15 this year, maybe even closer to 4:10.

01/02/2013 at 09:13

Kelly – Its about 2 inches below the knee on the outside of my leg. The pain radiates right down the leg through to my foot though. Excellent mileage from you. I’m a sure a breakthrough must be near. Do you have any race targets lined up?

Simon – That session looks spot on. I like the timing to 2 decimal places as well

Curly – Shame if Magpie can’t race. It must be fun with you 2 being so close in racing terms.

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