The Middle Ground

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05/02/2013 at 14:49

Stevie - ha ha, I guess that the declines are hidden in with the inclines. Defo a deceptively fast course though, if that race didnt always clash with Hants Road Race League there would be even more quality in it too. I guess theres lots of straight sections so it keeps it fast despite the inclines and declines. Havnt done Eastleigh so no idea on the course myself. D Day 10k is pancake flat (on the Victory 5 course) but you'd be top 10 and running on your own.

Edited: 05/02/2013 at 14:50
05/02/2013 at 16:10

Yeah, I think i'll keep it to fast and quality fields for my South Coast trips. Like we've discussed a few times, Chichester, Eastleigh 10ks, Victory 5, and Gosport Half are probables this year. GSR was probably a one off, having got entry free, and doing a more local 10miler the week before.

The start at Chichester reminded me of 2 local races we have this way, that start with hills. Wooburn 10k has a 1k steep hill, 8k of non descript rural roads and an almighty smash down the final km for what will be the fastest road km you ever do to the finish! Probably lose 1min on a flat course.

Wycombe half, starts with a 1mile even steeper hill, has some undulating bits, and you get the downhill part at 6miles, so you're ages from the finish.

Clearly Chichester is a mini climb compared to these 2 monsters..but just reminded me a bit.

Anyway, that's enough Chichester stuff from me you were folks!

05/02/2013 at 16:22

Uphill start, y'say?  How about Beachy Head Marathon?  Some lovely weather, to boot!    (30-32 secs, bottom left hand corner. )

Edited: 05/02/2013 at 16:22
05/02/2013 at 16:55
Y D wrote (see)

For info on Sunday I ran a 10k pb at 90.7% maxHR, so on the surface it’s a bit low. I think the wind had an impact here + I am in Marathon training - other than strides I haven’t done much running faster than 6:00/m, so although I feel very strong and fit, I will probably have some performance drop off when I get much faster than MP for any extended period. If I ran another 10k next week, I would probably attack it a bit earlier so might see 92% maxHR, I think I could probably afford to hurt a bit more in the middle part of the race.  

Now then - although I dont run to HR this is exactly the same problem I was having on Sunday!

I never got anywhere near my usual levels of hurt in the middle of the race, I was puffed out afterwards, but my splits show that I ran the last 0.27 (by my garmin) at 5:57 so clearly I picked up the pace to get that. Moraghan suggested its normal and somewhat what you want at this stage of marathon training, because of what TR says about lack of taper (I did a full week minus the long run) and cumulative fatigue, but its nice to hear someone else reporting it too!

I'm planning on fixing mine with a track season over the summer as I've been asked by the club to run some 800's, 1500's and 3ks. I'll use the time between to concentrate on developing some speed to use in track races (ha ha I can feel some last places happening )

Easy 5 for me tonight, felt fine yesterday so speeded up my recovery run. Ratzer for me its always the first run the day after a race or hard session that I use as the option for a recovery run. I dont need it all the time - I had no remaining leg stiffness after Sunday's race once I had cycled to work, worked and then cycled back, but if I had then a short run would have worked it out. I'm slow to recover though so I suspect for others it will be the evening of a hard session or race morning.

Last Surrey XC this weekend... sounds like my sort of course. Hilly.

Duck sounds lovely up there  Assuming Dundee marathon would be hilly? If not when is it being talked about for?

05/02/2013 at 17:00

Ohhh and can one of you lovelies find the wava table for me?? I cant find the latest one!  

05/02/2013 at 19:12
The Duckinator wrote (see)
prf - no idea if this would be something you might be interested in (seeing how we discussed new marathons a while back) but Dundee is looking for interest for a small-scale marathon (provisional date is July 21st) - they need 300 pre-entries to make the event go ahead. I have no idea if they plan to open it up to thousands if it IS given the go ahead, but I thought I'd at least make you aware of it (same goes for anyone else interested but prf was the first that sprung to mind). Here's a link to the page.

Duck/Curly - this is not a new marathon.  It ran last year and in 2011 I think.  I did the half, which starts at the same time as the full but only does half the course then you are bussed back to the start.  The profile of the HM is downhill but this is not without problems.  It certainly wasn't my best HM performance!  The marathon will be undulating and the downhill miles in the first half will have to be made up in the second.  Very friendly event.  There were problems in the finish area where some of the the HM runners didn't see the finish line and carried on with the marathoners. (not me - I always know where the finish line is!) 




05/02/2013 at 20:27
Evening all,

YD - fantastic race report from you, and congrats on the new PB! Seems like this marathon training malarkey really suits you, and you're in great form right now.

Mr V - any news on your leg? hope the niggle has gone away.....

PhilPub - may be a dumb question, but what is INFRS?

Ratzer - a recovery run for me is always the morning after a hard session, and I agree that anything more than 24 hrs after is no longer a recovery run, but just an easy session

The stuff around heart rates is interesting reading, and I'm looking forward to running a few races at full pelt to see where my HR comes out.

On that topic, I have a bit of a question about my next scheduled event, which is the Race your Pace half at Dorney in 2 weeks. Originally I had planned this as a chance to do a decent MP session, but I'm now tempted to run it fairly hard, and see if I could sustain sub 7mins/mi and get a bit closer to 90 mins for a half?

My twisted logic is that this would give me a decent sense of where I'm at in terms of current fitness , and would still be a big training boost towards the bigger picture. What do others think, and what would you do?
05/02/2013 at 22:20

YP - It's Not Fkn Rocket Science  On the HM, IMO the only real danger in running one full-pelt is either if it's too close to race day or if you're carrying any niggles, etc. It's up to you but I'd be inclined to give it full beans.  Apart from anything else I'd understand if you're frustrated from missing giving Chichester a proper go.

I think my legs felt fresh this evening after what was effectively a cut-back week last week (i.e. not just a wasted mini-taper ).  Most comfortable threshold mile session so far,14.4M w/ 8x1600 (30s recovery), all between 5:26 - 5:29 on a busy track.  It's probably the first of these sessions recently where I can imagine keeping the pace for a HM, so looks good for Brighton on the 17th.

05/02/2013 at 22:26

A full on HM doesnt seem to do any damage at anything 3+ weeks out but its a totally different story when talking about racing 20 milers, they do leave lasting damage!

Duck - Thanks for the heads up but after London I'm going all Duckified and concentrating on preparing for the mile in September....

05/02/2013 at 22:38

YP:  PP took the words right out of my mouth! Go for it: there's is nothing to be lost at this stage unless any niggles return. Will be a good marker of fitness, HR etc. Obviously if you do a mini-taper and need a mini-recovery you may want to consider how this affects the bigger picture. Otherwise I can't see any "twisted logic".

Yesterday walked for 2 hours, largely off road, and fairly briskly, with 15 minutes of running (into horizontal hail!): Achilles recovery seems to be going well, although overall fitness is taking a long time to come back. Slight hiccup today, though, as I had the first part of my prostate treatment which involved a general anaesthetic: have been told to take it easy for a few days. I wonder what qualifies as "take it easy"!?
The more serious part of my treatment is on 15th: exercise for around a week afterwards is not advised, but obviously long term health is more important than short-term gains. Hope to get a decent week in beforehand, though.

06/02/2013 at 06:46
Alehouse - hope the prostrate treatment goes well, and that you find the balance between taking it easy, and enjoying being able to rebuild your overall fitness.

PP - alright, I only asked... No need to go all capital letters and use obscenities!

Thanks for the input on how I run Dorney next weekend - I'm glad to say that you all gave the correct answer (I.e the one I wanted to hear!), so assuming the next 10 days training don't reveal any niggles, then I'll be giving it full beans (minus any taper)...
06/02/2013 at 07:48

Alehouse hee I was the same after my op - took it easy for two weeks then ran a marathon (off road with checkpoints so not arduous but still qute silly). I would say a general usually makes me feel rough for 2-3 days after but if it doesnt for you carry on as normal. The main risks for exercise post surgical stuff is bleeds/infections so just keep an eye on it. If it hurts or you feel tired then stop. Be guided by your body

YP I agree with PP, PRF et al.

Yawwwwwwn tired today, but day off work so will relax before my light session tonight.

06/02/2013 at 07:48

Aley, hope things tick along in the right direction, like you say short term isn't important compared to the long term health position, so stick with it, with the promise of better times ahead!

YP, ahh Dorney. Would love to do a proper certified 5k round that course. The 5ks they run there seem not to be, and have insanely low standard. Be interested how you find a half marathon there. 4 laps + an extra bit?  I wish you no wind (in either sense ), and a good race.

06/02/2013 at 07:50

Wonder if BR has seen those flyknit trainers up there... only £150 How an earth do they justify that price??

06/02/2013 at 08:11

MIDDLE GROUND WAVA LEAGUE (November-February) Calculator here: 

82.34% Hilly (10M, 66:45, December)
79.26% Duck (60m, 8.1, December)76.52% YD  (5M, 28.20, November)
73.52% Dr.Dan (10K, 40:27, November)
72.97% Curly (10k, 41:35 February)72:09% Minni (5m 35:11, November)
71.43% MrV (5M 29.52 November)
59.56% CB (10K, 46:20, December)
Need to add one back in:
Phil, BR, Simon, Ratzer, YoungPup, Dash, dav3c, Wardi, SG, PRF, RobT

Right you lot. This was the latest one I could find. Get adding,

Thanks for the info Minni sounds a bit too hilly for me


06/02/2013 at 08:46

Alehouse- Good news on the Achilles recovery and hope the treatment goes well for you.

So I had my physio appointment last night and turns out its nerve trouble and not a stress fracture as I had convinced myself  My right side has pretty much locked up so lots of loosening around the hips, abdcutors, glutes etc needed to get me right again. Going back tomorrow for what I assume will be a very painful session. He said it will be a fairly slow and gradual return to running but that’s far better than the alternative!

06/02/2013 at 08:53

Yeah Mr V that sounds like good news despite the slow return! Hope the session tomorrow isnt too painful. Can you do anything in the meantime?

06/02/2013 at 08:54

replacing my 77.71% from October, with an erm....77.71% from's that for consistent!

Have to say the Howard Grubb calculator is probably a better comparison too for comparative performances than McMillan....

Curly45 wrote (see)

MIDDLE GROUND WAVA LEAGUE (November-February) Calculator here: 

82.34% Hilly (10M, 66:45, December)

79.26% Duck (60m, 8.1, December)
77.71% SG (10K, 34:43, February)
76.52% YD  (5M, 28.20, November)
73.52% Dr.Dan (10K, 40:27, November)
72.97% Curly (10k, 41:35 February)
72:09% Minni (5m 35:11, November)
71.43% MrV (5M 29.52 November)

59.56% CB (10K, 46:20, December)

Need to add one back in:
Phil, BR, Simon, Ratzer, YoungPup, Dash, dav3c, Wardi, SG, PRF, RobT


06/02/2013 at 09:05

Oooooh a dodger list!

Could I be so bold as to add my name in? What dates qualify?

06/02/2013 at 09:14

Any measured course from November to Feb Brian. feel free to add yourself!

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