The Middle Ground

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11/02/2013 at 18:48
WJH wrote (see)

Stevie G - two very good PBs over two weeks...oh and that Eastleigh climb is pretty similar in length actually to the climb at the start at Chichester...although perhaps a little steeper as you near the end of it. Another 10k PB there perhaps??? 

or maybe not now you've said that  

WJH
11/02/2013 at 19:33
Haha I'm making it sound much worse than it actually is...it's a very fast course no question or arguments at all as with Chichester...the key difference with that was that my mile splits at Chichester were faster than I actually thought I was achieving! If anything, the climb at Eastleigh comes at a great point in the race and the gentle downward section after it is where things should start coming together
WJH
11/02/2013 at 19:38

Evening everyone, not had any time recently to post! Big congrats to Stevie today on a top-notch half time. 

BBB - welcome along. Best place to be for improvement IMHO  

Training has been going.... that's all I can really say. Not been feeling that well this week so took Thursday off (I had plyos planned so not a huge deal). Topped off with a canned 4*1000 session yesterday - was aiming for 3'2x, after struggling to hit 3'40 for the first and not much quicker for the second I binned it. Endurance not feeling like it's anything special right now - in fairness the last few weeks have barely scraped over 20 miles. I'd hate to see what my 5k is like right now 

11/02/2013 at 21:56
WJH & Duck - Hello and thanks. Appreciating the input and enjoying making my way back through some of the earlier stuff too.

Thanks too to Y D for the specifics. I'd actually already spent some time at lunch looking at where I could extend my run next week beyond yesterday's 10k funnily enough. The rest of the family is away overnight on Saturday, so after a rare Sunday lie in I have free reign to spend plenty of time later that morning out running. Given that 10k is my longest distance to date, and it will be exactly 2 weeks to the race I'm building up to, would I be wise to be conservative and just extend it to a 7 mile run, or is it worth testing myself with an 8 or even 9 miler? Certainly fancy the challenge of the longer distance!

Any thoughts, folks?
12/02/2013 at 14:31

BBB - good luck sifting through all of the "nice session", "well run", "nice parkrun prf", and other ramblings to find the useful stuff  

On the whole, it's fascinating to see how everyone has progressed in the last (almost) 3 years (is it really that long already!?). FWIW when Curly started the thread I hadn't broken 20 for 5k and the thought of running on a track would have broken me out in a cold sweat. 

Now I'm all reflective - anyone got a candidate for best individual thread race performance so far? My first thought is Ratzer's VLM from last year but I'll have a think. 

I'm still not feeling 100% but did 4*600 off 3'00 rec today. In pre-comp this recovery would normally be 2'30, but the aim of today was more on aerobic development rather than specific endurance hence the longer recoveries. Ran 1'48.2, 1'49.1, 1'46.4, 1'49.6 for 4:51/m avg which is pretty good. There was a bit of a headwind - can you guess where? 

12/02/2013 at 20:58

Yes, plenty of that Duck - but enough good stuff and interesting discussion to make it worth wading through a little at a time!

Was reading earlier where you were whinin' and a bitchin' about feeling awful on an 8:30ish easy run, so whacked in a hard 6:40 odd mile (your 10k pace at the time I think you said) for the hell of it. Nice to be able to do that from where I'm sitting, but as you say those paces this afternoon really put into perspective your progress since then. Congrats. 

Right, just over 4.5 miles for me this evening in 36:30 - a progression run I guess you'd call it.

Easy first mile, and then progressing through what McMillan judges my HM pace, through 10K pace, and on towards my 5K pace in the 4th mile.

Mile splits of 8:35, 8:07, 7:50 and 7:21 before a final half mile warm down back at 8:30 pace. The big acceleration in mile 4 can be partly explained by the benefit of some payback on some climbs earlier in the run, but pleased to hold the pace once it levelled out - bodes well for the stamina for my upcoming 10K race, particularly as the 8:30 warm down pace felt like a right old doss and I could easily have picked up the pace for another harder mile or more I reckon.

Probably still a bit quicker than I ought to be doing strictly speaking, but it will be much slower miles for my other two runs this week before Saturday's Parkrun, and at least I didn't hammer it from the start and worked my way up through the gears. 

Think this sort of run might be the way forward for me once a week actually, had a bit of stiffness in the legs when I set out, but they feel electric now, and I feel invigorated in myself with a good shot of confidence from that 4th mile.

Happy!  

12/02/2013 at 22:34
 

Eh up Ducky.  Plenty of time to get the aerobic engine going for the 5k, your legs are turning over nicely for the shorter stuff at the moment.

BBB - I think a periodic progressive / progressive tempo run is good to put in the mix. Also good to mix it up with steady-pace tempo runs as well though, as this helps with pace judgement for races.

Interesting track session this evening, 6 x 1k but with 3mins/500m recovery (8 min miling!)  Hadn't intended hammering it but splits ended up pretty decent, 3:08, 3:06, 3:05, 3:05, 3:05, 3:05. A bit quicker than necessary for marathon training perhaps, but nice to know I can still get the legs moving a couple of days after a 22 miler.    

13/02/2013 at 08:15
Morning all,

WJH - I probably will start doing a bit of faster stuff between now and Eastleigh, but it will all be longer intervals or tempo runs, and nothing quicker than 10k pace. I'm trying to learn a little bit from prf (and Alehouse), and am viewing all races in the lead up to Milton Keynes as training sessions and a chance to get useful feedback on where my fitness is upto. If they result in a PB, then great, but if not then so be it...

Stevie / YD - thanks for info re strengthening / stretching... I need to build more of this into my training plan (and then I need to make the time to do it)

BBB - nice progressive run, and that feeling of being able to do more when you finished is a great sign that you're in good shape. If I were you I would look to run long on Sunday, and think a 7-8 mile run ( run at a nice SLOW pace ) would be a really good training boost ahead of the 10k in two weeks time.

Duck - welcome back!

Phil - that is very impressive pace control on the last 4 reps (and a bloody fast pace as well)

I've had two decent sessions yesterday and today. Yesterday's was a bit of a prep for my half marathon at the weekend, so did 8 miles with 1m w/u, 1m@HMP, 1m recovery, 1m@10k pace, 1m recovery, 1m@HMP, 2m easy. This was then followed up by 10 easy aerobic miles this morning
13/02/2013 at 09:14

YP – Decent training from you there.

Phil – Nice speed. That’s your marathon sprint  finish sorted then

Duck – Yeah it is interesting to see how much people have improved since the thread started. Just checked and my PBs back then for HM,10K and 5k then were 1.32, 40.21 and 19.31. So some good progress since then. Having said that my current half PB is from Sept 2011 and my 10k PB from November 2011. So I’ve hardly set the world alight since! Very frustrating as I keep getting thwarted with injury, illness, cancellations or just rotten racing conditions whenever I get into decent shape. I must be due some PBs soon!!!!

Injury continuing to improve slowly. I ran 20 minutes on Sunday and have permission to run again tonight. Hopefully can manage another 20 mins and add on a further 5/10 mins if everything feels ok.

Edited: 13/02/2013 at 09:15
13/02/2013 at 13:39

Phil - Thanks. My quicker/tempo midweek runs recently have been at more of a steady pace, but with a little tiredness in the legs and taking on board the slower miles advice, decided to build the pace more slowly and only if I felt good last night. Will certainly try to get one more evenly paced tempo run of a similar length in before the 10K though. Perhaps the Wednesday before the race on the following Sunday, or would that be too close?

YP - Thanks also. Right, I'll split the difference on that and make it a 7.5 mile route I've just been working on over lunchtime in that case. McMillan is telling me 8:26-9:44 for long run pace. Does 8:45 pace sound reasonable as a target off that, or should I really be trying to slow it down further? Worth throwing some strides / fartleks in to keep myself entertained in the second half of the run, or should I keep it all slow mileage only?

Thanks again - really valuing the input.

13/02/2013 at 15:38
BBB - I would slow it down further. I was running 8.45 for easy off a sub 40 10K.

As you get further into training and building mileage, it won't be so difficult to slow down. You'll need to in order to stay in one piece.

You have plenty of time to add faster work in later. As this is the first time at this distance (?), keep it slow and don't leave your race in a training run.

YD - glad you are able to start running again. I know exactly want you mean. All of my pb's are from the latter part of 2011. I achieved SFA last year!
13/02/2013 at 16:26

Kelly – Annoying isn’t it especially as I think we both posted reasonable miles last year! I managed over 2700 yet my only PB was to shave a few seconds off the 5k time (that and a semi reasonable 5 miler when returning to fitness). The frustrating thing is I’m sure I’ve easily been in PB shape on several occasions but the races have just never come at the right time. How are you managing with your asthma? Have things improved?

Bob – It’s effort level that’s important here and the key is keeping it genuinely easy. If that pace is 8.45s then that’s fine but you don’t want to be pushing for a particular pace. Personally I’m not a fan of keeping things artificially slow either.  But when I’m at full training its rarely an issue as I’m usually tired enough from fast sessions to be more than happy to plod along on easy runs. I think most newer runners find easy pace feels very slow to start with but as they increase training load over time this stops being the case!

13/02/2013 at 22:32
Kelly, Mr V - Thanks for your thoughts. Tried a particularly slow run tonight - with the lying snow providing a natural brake - 2.7 miles at over 9 minute mile pace. Was ok for the short distance, but I do feel it changes my form and it was ridiculously easy, probably not even breathing much more heavily than normal within a minute or so of getting home and barely broke sweat. I did about 9.4km two Sundays ago at just over 8:30 pace and despite being my longest run to that point had again regained breath very quickly after getting home.

So, yes, the 7.5 miles or so on Sunday will be my first time at that distance, Kelly - longest run by just over a mile - and I'll see if I can drop my pace to nearer 9 minute miles, and will try to be brutally honest with myself on intensity if a faster pace is beginning to test me, but as Mr V suggests I am reluctant to make it artificially slow, particularly if I feel it is causing unnatural form.

Enjoying everything else with my running so far, but really wrestling with this pace conundrum still. Perhaps as you both suggest, some harder sessions will naturally cause the penny to drop.

Last run of the week tomorrow lunchtime from work before having a last thrash at my Parkrun PB before the 10k race. Unsure tomorrow whether to keep it as easy as tonight, or get my legs turning over a little quicker in preparation for Saturday's run. Will see how the legs feel in the morning I think.

Good luck to you both in your pursuit of more successful and / or healthier years in 2013!
Edited: 13/02/2013 at 22:33
14/02/2013 at 08:30

BBB I run slower than you on easy runs a lot of the time! 12 miles for me last night @ 9:16 pace

Good to see you are taking on board the advice though and good with the parkrun and 7.5 mile combo.

Mr V nice to see you are able to do some test runs now.

Speaking of Alehouse I wonder if he has had his treatment yet or is it next week?

Kelly I see you putting in some stonking mileage at the moment on the fetch league table so I smell a few pbs coming your way soon.

Had a bit of a bug so didnt do the Tuesday club session and slogged around the run last night, but feeling better again today so going out shortly for another easy run. Will make a decsion on tomorrow's session then, its nothing too hard so should be okay as long as I continue to get better

14/02/2013 at 14:48
Mr V - sorry. I called you YD earlier. The breathing has been difficult to judge as it is so cold. I have never known anything like yesterday - cut my 16 to 14 as I thought I might cry if I stayed out any longer - yet today is 8 degrees or something. Bloody weather. I'll complain it's too hot in a couple of weeks.

I've been able to get in some decent quality sessions lately though and my fast strides the other day were low 6's, high 5's and that was after a few miles of MP, HMP and 10K, so I can't complain! I only got one pb last year and that was only because I'd only raced the distance one, two years previously, ha.

Curly - the miles aren't a problem, I've enjoyed it for the most part, just hoping it translates into some consistent speed soon. I'm going to pretend it is 2011 as I'm way ahead of where I was in Feb 11 and went on to have a great year. It helps that I've switched my rest day to Sunday so that I can have one lie in a week (have been operating for years of up early every day for kids or training) and have some undisrupted family time.

How long is it until your marathon? You're up first aren't you, it's before London? No pressure

I'm actually going to enter some races in the next few months. Couple of more XC meets to do, then race myself fit with Thirsk, a few 10K's and a HM in May.

BBB - we've all been there. I remember in my early days trying to make every run further and faster than the last, finding it impossible to run "slowly". I don't think there is any harm to enjoy the first few months as long as you don't build up too quickly. As we all discover when you really get into it, tiredness from the quality sessions eventually dictates taking it easier on easy runs.

There is also that element of trying to convince yourself you're finding the pace easy - after all, it is, compared to faster running - when really it is a bit more of a push than you admit. Generically speaking. Don't get too caught up with it though. See what the effort comes out as and if that happens to be faster, then so be it. Enjoy this period where almost every race is a pb. I used to feel invicible
14/02/2013 at 17:20

Evening!

My ears were burning Curly so realised you'd mentioned me! Going in tomorrow for the brachytherapy (radiation seeds in prostate): no idea what state I will be in afterwards, or for how long. Just have to accept whatever it is. I would imagine that it will be at least a week before any form of exercise, but you simply don't know. And talking of exercise I have bashed out 4 x 20 over the last week. Unfortunately it was only 4 x 20 minutes...and very slowly, but it is now running, although I don't think I have run a k under 6 minutes yet. Lots of niggles, but none of them in the Achilles which now, post-surgery, appears to be the only strong part of me!

14/02/2013 at 20:05

Fingers crossed for you Alehouse, best of luck.

Kelly.. great to see you getting consistent miles in again.

BBB.. the Parkruns are well worth presevering with.  You don't even have to fret if you have an odd bad one or the weather is against you as you can just turn up the next week and try again.  In my example of one, over 3-4 months I went from 21:54 to 19:51.  I had to miss a couple of month's worth due to damaged ribs (Dec/Jan) but my comeback last week wasn't too shabby at 20:30.  Sub 20 is the target again, it does help that my local course (York) is very flat! 

Mr V.. hope that pesky injury mends soonest!  Sounds promising.

11m on muddy trails today, quite a contrast to last night's snow & strong winds -  26,000 homes in York had no power!

Edited: 14/02/2013 at 20:08
14/02/2013 at 20:46

Evening all.  For some reason I've not been able to post on here for days.  Kept getting a message 'error on page'.  Strange!

Good to see some strong running continues!

Glad you're over your bug Curly!

Things seem to be looking up for you Kelly, even if there are still some issues.

Mr V - sorry you're still struggling with injury!  I can understand how frustrating it must be.  I'm still struggling on and off.  One day feel it's coming back and then washed out again!  Ear infection at present so not run for 3 days this week.  Although hoping it will feel ok by Sunday as I'm racing and feel the need to give it a good go!

alehouse - good luck!  Hope all goes well!

14/02/2013 at 21:08

alehouse - All the best. Some good steady progress recently so I guess you're going into treatment being as fit as you can be.

MrV / kelly - Another cake-baking comment from me!  Fingers crossed for both of you that it comes good sooner rather than later.  You're due some proper PB-bashing with the training you've been putting in.

Curly - I've been all-but confirmed for official pace-making duties (1:30) for the Richmond HM on Easter Sunday.  Will you be in that neck of the woods?  Will be a useful reccy for a potential future pre-mara HM, so I'll report back afterwards, obviously.

Had my favourite pre-race tempo-lite session this evening.  6M w/ 3 @ 5:34, virtually identical to similar recent pre-race Thursday sessions, but notable for a tempo "beats per mile" record (max HR lower than typical HM race average), further evidence of the body getting all marathon-shaped!

Edited: 14/02/2013 at 21:23
15/02/2013 at 09:45

Curly / Kelly - Thanks. Guess there's currently a battle going on between the ears between a dash of hubris and what the more sensible side of me is reading,  hearing and knows makes sense! Hopefully I'll get there before I do myself a mischief, though have had some tightness in my right calf since 3 (hilly) miles at around 8 minute pace yesterday lunchtime. Perhaps the body trying to tell me something now? Will see how it feels in my Parkrun warm up in the morning, and if it's not substantially better, will abandon any thoughts of a PB and just enjoy a more sociable bimble round in the middle of the pack. Hope the bug has cleared up Curly - feel like I've been constantly fighting one sniffle or another off for a couple of months now, sick of winter.

Wardi - Nice times! I'll get there eventually, though might be back end of the year at best before I can even begin thinking of getting anywhere near the 20:00 minute mark, not least as my running is going to have some competing demands from my club cricket commitments from mid-April onwards. Not sure how that's going to work out yet. The irony could be that the fitness drive was first kicked off to help my cricket, but if I do join a running club as I'm planning to within the next few weeks to get involved in some summer league racing, it's not impossible that the cricket could end up coming off second best if there's any clashes. 

Some good running going on elsewhere by the sound of it - have a good weekend everyone.

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