The Middle Ground

Ratzer - yeah endurance is quite a big part of an 800, although my philosophy has changed a bit from the Lydiard "slog out the miles" approach (although there is absolutely a need for base mileage). Hard tempos, quality 3k/5k pace in the new year, well-paced long runs etc are all needed. And of course you need the opposite end too - i.e good basic speed! 

Well the 3k went pretty well - 10'20 which is 1s quicker than I ran 2 months ago. Was really on course at 2k for something (went through in 3'21/3'16 so was under 10 minute pace) but the top 3 were just out of reach and I couldn't bridge the gap, so ended up dropping off the pace in the final k (3'37). Had I been within striking distance with a k to go I reckon I could have got a small pb today (sub-10 was beyond me I think).

So 2 races in 6 days where I reckon I could have matched or just ran a pb given the right situation, so not bad at all. Didn't feel like I had given it my all at the end today, but as I've said in the past I find it so difficult to push the pace when I'm on my own - which is exactly what happened today. 

hope so Curly, a pal from my thread is coming too..so that will hopefully add the fear factor of being beaten to push things along!

wouldn't fancy a 3k Duck. Would you say you have a drop off from say 800 to 3k, or from 3k to 5k? If either?

Stevie G . wrote (see)

wouldn't fancy a 3k Duck. Would you say you have a drop off from say 800 to 3k, or from 3k to 5k? If either?

x-post! (London buses re: posting and all that )

I have a drop off from 400m up  I convert well from 60-400 - I don't have the raw explosive power/top speed to be a good 100/200 runner, but I have decent speed endurance for a 400. After that, the endurance side of running kicks in so I start to drop off. My full set of pb's (inc. what they predict for the next distance up, using BrianMac which is very reputable):

60 - 8.1 (13.08)
100m - 12.7 (25.66)
200m - 25.55 (very out of date, but predicts 56.21)
400m - 55.75 (2:02.7)
800m - 2:09.65 (out of date too, 4:30.01)
1500m - 4:38.47 (9:54)
3k - 10:12 

After that the drop off becomes a freefall. But you can see how I'm beating the predictions up to 400, then after that falling short as endurance takes more of a hold.  

Quite interesting Ducky. I certainly wouldn't fancy taking you on at anything from 1500 down. But then again those are dangerous ugly distances I've never dipped my beak into

Maybe you're following in the footsteps of the main man himself Moraghan, who I think said himself that he drops off heavily from 3k up.

Am I imagining it, or did you run a club 400 once in 60s? If you did that's quite impressive speed for a 10k/HM runner. 

If Moraghan is lurking, I think he's said he considers himself more of a 400 runner, but I could be mistaken. I'd like to be able to split sub-52 and run 35 for 10k... someday 

Looking at 400m splits from today, I was steady on 80/81s until two right at the end that were 88/88! That's what got me  

What's all this about it being warm up north?  I was freezing my feet off last time I was up there!

Duck - Nice 3k.  How full or empty is your glass?    Do you feel like you should be doing something to get your relative paces more "normal" or are you happy to think that MD is your thing and accept the drop-off? 

To answer your question about mara HR, actual race HR has been 168 for both road marathons, i.e. 5 beats higher than last night's run.  I suspect the additional beats will come back for the same pace, after a proper taper.

Curly - That's not a rest day, stick it down as x-training at least!

SG - The 5k pb must be in for a smashing to get it in line with the 10k, 10M surely?

Ratzer - Thanks for the Vaseline reminder, the marathon could be a sorry experience without it.  At the end of the race at Brighton I reminded myself that somewhere between 10k and HM is my chafing threshold (nipples/thighs!)  Oops.

x-post Duck... sub-35 10k then.  Get those miles in! 

PhilPub wrote (see)

Duck - Nice 3k.  How full or empty is your glass?    Do you feel like you should be doing something to get your relative paces more "normal" or are you happy to think that MD is your thing and accept the drop-off? 

To answer your question about mara HR, actual race HR has been 168 for both road marathons, i.e. 5 beats higher than last night's run.  I suspect the additional beats will come back for the same pace, after a proper taper.

Have you found a HR/pace improvement from a taper in the past?

As for tightening the conversion, yes it would be easy enough to improve the 400/800, 800/1500, 1500/3k etc conversions by upping mileage, however that would come at the expense of 400 speed.

The short-to-medium goal is to get the 400/800 times down, by focusing more on speed and strength to help with the conversion. If I can run something like 53.0/1:59.7 (which is an ok conversion but not great) without really pumping the miles in, then I'll have set myself up for some good road times in the future when I do up my mileage.

So I'm happy to accept the drop off for now, knowing that it'll be better in the long run to focus on speed for now.

Hope so PP, i'll give it a blast, and use you as inspiration, as you did yours pretty much as a time trial didn't you? No one anywhere near!

Duck, yeah, well remembered! I did a 400 as part of a club track night (the one time I ever joined the club who are 40miles away for a session!)

I did a 1k in 2.57, and then 10mins later was up for a 400, against a close rival. Was gutted to see him pull away for 58, with me at 60.

I'm sure that could be quicker when fresh, but probably not in your league!

Quite a shock to the system racing a 400! Probably don't have the strength, which is where the gym would no doubt have to be hit severley

Duck - Looking at your times again, it's definitely the step from 1500 down to 800 where things start seeming a bit alien to me!  I've never raced 800 but sub-2 just seems like another level.

SG - Almost.  I spotted a local guy on the start line who can be very quick on his day, and he did shoot off like a rocket, but I caught him after a few hundred yards, we ran together till about 1k then it was a 4k time-trial. Given the way the HM went last week, I'm happy that I'm a good time-trial runner although I still prefer running with a group. I think.

Did you lap anyone out of interest? I suppose all it would take is someone running 11min miling, and you'd have caught them after mile 2 sometime..

Interesting numbers Duck ... I remember well that time you suddenly realised you were made for the shorter distances!

Well, Feb finished with a disapointing 74 miles - external factors meant that it couldn't be helped but still ... need to get back to something closer to 200 in March! At least I dragged my bike out last week and notched up 30M of commuting ... never actually done that in Feb before (very much a Spring/Summer cyclist).

After Sunday's 10M at 6:68/m, I did a 5M handicap race at lunchtime today at 6:43/m. Unexpected as I thought I was still recovering .... but it was very even pacing and I actually felt pretty good. Maybe Sunday's race woke up the legs?

 

SG - Yes, one or two!  The paths are very wide, really nicely set-up for running fast.  If anything you'll get less trouble from lapped runners than from people on hired reclining bicycles.  And children.  And dogs.  Pesky little things. 

The Duckinator wrote (see)

 

Have you found a HR/pace improvement from a taper in the past?

 

Sorry, missed this bit.  What I've found at the end of a marathon taper is that on race day HR can get up more quickly than in an MP training run, so I get a higher HR for a given perceived effort.  This is why it's difficult to judge from the training runs whether it's realistic MP. I don't really know what my exact pacing strategy will be; I could say, stick to max HR of 163 in the first x miles etc, but I'll always override this if the effort level doesn't feel right, and/or the pace is way out.  I think it's going to be an iterative process taking in as much info as possible.

Or shall I ditch the Garmin and run by feel? 

Dr.Dan wrote (see)

Interesting numbers Duck ... I remember well that time you suddenly realised you were made for the shorter distances!

Me too.  That old video is probably worth a re-run sometime!  Btw, that was nice pacing, DrD.

Got home for the 18m and it must have been twenty to six when I stepped out the door, so I said I'd be back at 8.  Bit of a challenge, seeing as I did the back nine in reasonable time on Weds and still took 2:25.  (That's two HOURS and twenty five MINUTES, okay? )  But, in line with the early morning run talk, I was obviously looser in the evening and settled easily into steady.  Maybe a bit too steady as I did my first three miles about three minutes quicker than normal.  So in line with what I'm sure is PP's mantra - do it quicker and it won't hurt for as long - I didn't ease up too much.  Turned the corner at 8m about 60mins, and 9m about 69mins. There's a mile uphill between those two points!  Think I got to 13.11 at 1:39, about five minutes slower than my first HM, about seven years ago.  I didn't do a marathon that year, so I think that predicts I won't be doing a marathon ten minutes more slowly this year.  15m in 1:52, then shortly after 16m the wheels started to come off.  My right hamstring started to tighten and just before 17m my left achilles started to niggle - maybe one was a result of the other.  So the last mile was probably the most miserable I've done in a long time.

Still, I knocked on the door at 8:00pm.  Without using a Garmin.

Glad I've got the weekend off!

Morning!

At last a "race" to mention! Went to Worsely Woods parkrun this morning and planned to do a little running. Plan changed when my friend Dr. Hill told me to run with him. We ran and chatted together for the first 3k but he gradually pulled away over the last 2k as my "good" calf was tightening. Anyway, with the short warm up and warm down that is the furthest I have run since late 2011! Clocked just under 28 mins, about 20 seconds behind Ron. Forgot to stop the watch! The screwed up barcode that I had in the car didn't work, so whether I appear in the results is questionable! Whilst I am quite pleased there have to be reservations: the calf, for one, and the speed: late 2011 I was expecting to run under 20 minutes. I am a long, long, long way off that! I should also be pleased that there were no post-op Achilles issues and that it is only 15 days since my prostate treatment. Onwards and upwards!

I hope SG reports a PB shortly!

Aley, I didn't let you down.

16:53, 17second pb.

Quite a bizarre feeling though, as my mate Johnas from my thread, a guy who I battled locally years back and never lost to utterly smashed me, by 20seconds!

However, I should probably focus on my side of things only

Nice course, nice vibe to it, and a good little catchup after.

SG - Well done. I was sure you would be sub 17. You definitely have a bias to the longer stuff though. Despite your protests you'll be a marathon runner one day

Alehouse - Great to hear you reporting a race. Just think of all those comeback PBs to come on the way back to sub 20.

Ratzer - Good pacing there. That is definitely one of your strengths as you showed at London last year. I think that's what will bag you a sub 3 this time round.

Another beautiful day here. 12 miles done in the glorious sunshine in the North Yorkshire countryside. Pace about 7.55s I think. Definitely my best post injury run. Only a bit of discomfort in the last couple of miles. It's days like these I appreciate just being able to run  - who cares about times and PBs

Excellent 3k from the Duck, and congrats on the sub-17 parkrun, Stevie. Good long one from Ratzer, but hope the creaks don't amount to anything, and uplifting to read about Alehouse and Mr V emerging from their dark places.

Gave the missus full reign last night to hammer my own grumbling calf and that loosened it up nicely, so had a 2.5 mile easy trundle round to keep the legs turning over ahead of tomorrow including 3 sets of strides. Felt strong and raring to go for tomorrow morning...let me at 'em!

So, to put a bit of pressure on myself and give myself some extra motivation when it starts to hurt what am I looking for out of my first 10k? 48:18 would improve my RunBritain handicap, whatever that's worth. 47:04 would improve my highest Age Graded result (61.26% I think) from my parkrun's to date, and looking at some comparisons of what those who have run my home parkrun, that which is held predominantly on tomorrow's course and what some of them did last year(it's a quicker course) I think the very top end of my expectation is 46:30. Probably ought to be happy with anything that is 47:xx really, but I'm going to be bold and pace myself for a 46:45.

Quick question. I find the last 1.5 mile of a flat out 5k is a constant battle to suppress the discomfort - I'm prepared for some of this agony tomorrow as well, but how soon is too soon? Last 1.5 miles again, or with the longer distance is it more difficult to sustain it at the back end. I.E. If I'm feeling that pain after 4 miles or so should I be backing off a little if I don't want to risk blowing up? Ta.

Oh, and one more thing. Saw Richard Whitehead whilst at the local shops this morning. Wanted to tell him that his 200m win last summer was my most jaw dropping moment of both Games, but was a bit crowded so thought I best leave him be. Used to see him quite regularly training down round here, but think he now does most of his training at Loughborough since the funding improved. That 200m really was crazy stuff!

congrats SG, i had your time in the works sweep!

Bob, 10k is a funny distance. have never seemed to run one well. i have 'effortlessly' ran a 10 miler and 5 miler once each before and while obviously in fair shape at those times  i think the main reasons were that 10 mile is at  threshold so is relatively comfortable and the 5 mile seemed like a 10k but in sheeps clothing! of course, i could be spouting utter bollox which is usually the case.

fwiw,  i always  hurt between the 6 and 7k's but although in pain there's never much pace drop-off. embrace the hurt!

on a personal note, i ran for a bit last night. some of it quicker than other bits. and it lasted a bit longer than deal or no deal!

Well done, SG!

27:49 for me: undoubtedly a personal worst, but will be proud to put my 57.16% WAVA at the bottom of the table. The only way is up!

Well done today Mr.V:  can I back you up on, "It's days like these I appreciate just being able to run  - who cares about times and PBs "