The Middle Ground

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03/03/2013 at 17:28
Afternoon all,

Great to see Alehouse back running and posting times on the WAVA table - I really think you deserve your recovery to continue, hope the prostrate treatment goes smoothly, and that it won't be too long before you're climbing back up the league table.

Awesome runs from Stevie, Wardi, BBB, and Curly - although i have to admit I'm going to look at Curly differently when I see her next now I know she's a swallower....

Interesting conversation re DNF's - my one and only DNF was my marathon last September, (when I over-tapered, was over stressed, and over confident with my pacing strategy) so I'm really hoping to not develop the habit.

My weekend of running has been fairly pleasing - and included a rare chance to run Nonsuch Parkrun on my own (without YP Jr) and the Spitfire 20 this morning.

The Parkrun was 19:58:7 (per my Garmin, Nonsuch results say 20:00, but that 1.3 seconds matters), and the 20 today was 2:44:59, with 10 easy, followed by 10@MP...
03/03/2013 at 17:32

Nice running YP - how did the 10 @ MP feel towards the end?

Your triad of marathon mistakes did make me smile, although I'm sure it wasnt funny at the time!

I see the woman I beat at Nonsuch last week ran 19:41 this week. Drat to having other stuff to do as I suspect it would have been a great race between us...

03/03/2013 at 17:53
Curly - overall the 10@MP felt tough but manageable, and I could definitely have managed a few more miles at the same effort level/pace.

Having said that I was running a little bit conservatively and going almost entirely by heart rate, rather than pace, so it was little bit slower than the 7:30-7:45/mile that I would like my actual marathon pace to be

The first 10 miles took 87 mins, and the second 10 took 78. Splits for mile 11-20 were:

7:57 avg HR of 159
7:42 avg HR of 161
7:52 avg HR of 162
8:00 avg HR of 162
7:58 avg HR of 163
7:34 avg HR of 163
7:59 avg HR of 163
7:56 avg HR of 165
7:51 avg HR of 166
7:02 avg HR of 168

My triad of marathon mistakes has the benefit of much hindsight - and at the time I was gutted
Edited: 03/03/2013 at 18:01
03/03/2013 at 18:02

YP thats okay re: slightly lower than you wanted pace wise at this stage of training, its the feeling like you could do more thats the good sign. 10m @ MP is a big chunk and is tough so well done!

03/03/2013 at 18:27
Cheers Curly - I knew that I just wanted to have a positive run, and whilst my plan was to do 10@9m/m followed by 10@07:30, I ended up shaving 3 mins of the first 10m and taking 3 mins more on the 2nd 10m. However, the end result is the same, and because of my calf pull this was the first 20 of this marathon campaign, so I'm relaxed about the paces...

I feel as though I am ever so slightly behind the curve in terms of where I would like to be with my marathon training, but according to prf (on the Kier mentoring thread) this is a good way to feel....? I also have 3 more weeks than most, as MK is not until 6th May

Great 21 from you today - are you getting close to firming up on your target for Brighton?
03/03/2013 at 18:32
YoungPup wrote (see)
Cheers Curly - I knew that I just wanted to have a positive run, and whilst my plan was to do 10@9m/m followed by 10@07:30, I ended up shaving 3 mins of the first 10m and taking 3 mins more on the 2nd 10m. However, the end result is the same, and because of my calf pull this was the first 20 of this marathon campaign, so I'm relaxed about the paces...

I feel as though I am ever so slightly behind the curve in terms of where I would like to be with my marathon training, but according to prf (on the Kier mentoring thread) this is a good way to feel....? I also have 3 more weeks than most, as MK is not until 6th May

Great 21 from you today - are you getting close to firming up on your target for Brighton?

Indeed - its better to be slightly behind now than overcooked come race day.

Lalalala sorry cant hear you

03/03/2013 at 21:22

My lord, I'm reading the innuendo, and the tv shampoo ad is inciting a "I'd like to insert some serum into my eyes" line from my housemate: I feel like I'm in a Carry On movie.

Well done, BBB, hope that warm glow lasts all week at least. And great to see SG knock off a sub 17 5k - with that done, onward to the next one!

I'm having an odd few weeks. Been a regular at the physio for a knee thing, which is definitely getting better, and has me running, but only at up to steady pace. My legs are fantastically tired, perhaps that's the physio exercises on top of a fair few miles, as I've got back up to 50 a week.

Yesterday I ran the G3 in Guildford. I love these races. Organised by all about triathlons, and the field is mostly triathletes, for a brutal off road 10kish (yesterday I clocked at 10.8). That gives it a nice feel; some quick people up the front, but a lot of people with a kind of "just running?! What larks" attitude. The 8.30 start time clashes with parkrun, so I've been giving them a miss, but now I'm a vet I thought there might be a pot hunting opportunity. All depends on who shows up, of course, and with me being unable to recognise a V40, my off road shoes being out of action and my lovely new grippy fell shoes being elsewhere I started in racing flats in about the 7th rank. A bit foolish, had to race through a lot of people, but it was a good feeling passing the field by going through the mud while those in trail shoes were heading round the edges.

After a 6.03 first mile I was still a fair way down and wondered why - the stats later showed we'd dropped 200 feet! I slowed but carried on picking people off, with the racing flats only a minor disadvantage. The whole thing has some fairly serious climbs - I had a walk at 7k, as did the fleet footed first lady up ahead.

At the end you can see your result, but with no age categories, and no obvious prize giving, I knew I was 11th but still didn't know how I'd done overall. Later on, I found - 1st vet! At the risk of putting this on PP and others' radar, that should mean a £60 voucher heading my way in the post, and a very successful pot hunt.

Then today I was sore enough that 20miles seemed a stretch, and then my tummy decided that leaving the house was definitely not on. Flip!

04/03/2013 at 09:26
Top bombing TOM. Some new plimsoles on their way?

Bob, just think what times you'll be doing when you start training!
04/03/2013 at 13:55

Afternoon everyone... busy weekend but time to catch up now.

Stevie, big shock with stuff like 400/800 is the oxygen debt. It really hits you like having a door hit you!

Congrats on the pb as well, you'll knock the 16'xxs out now every week, guaranteed 

Dan, 6:68/m is pretty impressive  shame the month hasn't gone to plan but you've shown in the past you can get back up to speed well, so hopefully you can do the same now.

Nicely done paerkrun alehouse, keep the progress going!

Wardi, goes to show the rollercoaster of racing. Excellent parkrun, hopefully snake lane was just a day off for the longer stuff.

BBB, that's great off 3 months training. Well done!

Curly, must be close to nailing down MP now given that session?

Ended up with 17M for last week - it was a cutback  I'm now into pre-comp and starting to build specific endurance for the track season. 

Did the traditional spectators job at Smokies 10 yesterday. Mum wasn't running but did spy Mrs Dolittle (if you remember her from a while back) - she picked up an individual and team prize! Didn't get a chance to speak to her though.

04/03/2013 at 14:03

Thanks for the comments, folks.  

Dash - yep - that's why I'm here! Curly - Cheers. Was acutely aware that I was probably strong arming my way in here a bit early, but could see that there's plenty, yourself included, who had taken the journey I want to take myself to getting themselves faster through smarter running. Really grateful for the time you've all taken to steer me so far, and whilst I was itching to hit some harder miles over the last 2/3 weeks, the worth of keeping a lid on it was proven yesterday, as I got to the start line not only in one piece, but chomping at the bit with fresh legs.

Congrats also to those with good races this weekend, Wardi, YP and T'Other Man and well done to Kelly for sticking it out. Some good training as usual as well, though Phil's starting to annoy me with his ability to burn the candle at both ends! Necking several of my favourite beers, and then nonchalantly shrugging them off by sticking in 21 swift training miles! 

So, race report - was too knackered last night - I now know what 'race beat' means. 

Had a Garmin disaster at the start as I bumped into one of the lads from our cricket club who is a keen runner, and had to go through the 'what the feck are you doing here?!' routine with him and explained that I'd just got into it. While we were gassing, the Garmin that I'd put into training mode, switched back to sleep mode, only realising as the gun went off, and was then fumbling with unlocking the bezel, re-entering training mode and so on as I jogged the first couple of hundred yards. 

That had let plenty of duffers past me, so ended up in a bit of a bottleneck, and once the watch was going and I was passing them again, realised I was doing some suicidal, crazy sheeeeet sub 7-minute mile pace, only slowing enough to complete the first (Garmin) clocked mile in 7.03. Too fast! But felt quite comfortable all the same.

Then got myself into a rhythm with a steady group of runners in club shirts - thought they'd be reasonable to tuck in with and so it proved, knocking out both miles 2 and 3 at 7:26 pace. Still quicker than I'd planned, but not too crazy, and still feeling pretty good. The next couple of miles did slow (7:33 and 7:34) with a bit of a climb in mile 5 hurting me and it was tough from there on, but given the earlier miles knew I was well on course for my target or better.

The group I was in then began to run out of steam, and I'd noticed a guy who had been consistently narrowly beating me at parkrun come past me at about the 4 mile mark. As he'd hitched a ride on me for at least half of one of those parkruns, and had beaten me by a second that day, I decided it was time to turn the tables, so left the group I was running with behind, caught up with him and let him do the work this time.

Was tough keeping it going by now, but with Dash's 'embrace the hurt, embrace the hurt' mantra repeating round my noggin, that 6th mile saw an acceleration to 7:11 pace! Although it was difficult to think straight at this point, I think I realised that sub-46 was on the cards, and internal 'embrace the hurt' was replaced with several repetitions of 'COME ON!' under my breath...or so I thought until someone turned round to look at me! 

Rounding the final corner and on to a grassy straight to the line, I was still on that bugger from parkrun's shoulder, summoned up the last of my energy, and hit the gas - was amazed to find just how much there was.



Edited: 04/03/2013 at 14:07
04/03/2013 at 14:07

November races are gone ... and I've dropped 3-4% to below 70%. I'll have to get in a good 10K at Bradford in a few weeks time.


MIDDLE GROUND WAVA LEAGUE (December-March) Calculator here:

85.79% PhilPub (10k, 33:07, February)
82.34% Hilly (10M, 66:45, December)

79.26% Duck (60m, 8.1, December)
78.16% SG   (HM, 75:41, February)
77.86% PRF (10K, 38:12, February)
77.35% Wardi (5K 19:52 March)
77.08% YD  (10K, 35:24, February)
73.84% Curly45 (5K 20:03, February)

69.98% Dr.Dan (10M, 69:42, February)

59.56% CB (10K, 46:20, December)
57.16% Alehouse (5K 27:49 March)

Need to add one back in:
BR, Simon, Ratzer, YoungPup, Dash, dav3c, RobT, Minni, MrV

04/03/2013 at 14:10


Looking at the Garmin download, I moved from 7:00 mile pace, through to 6:38 over the next 7 seconds, left parkrun dude for dead, found another gear again over the next 7 seconds to get to 5:00 mile pace, passing several other runners (nobody was coming past me now!) and held that and more for the final 25 seconds actually breaking the line at 4:27 mile pace! WTF?! 

Final chip time of 45:40 and 126th of 716 finishers on the day.

Looking at the Garmin elevation profile late last night after I finally summoned the energy to download it, I couldn't work out why there was an apparent 'dip' at the finish line where none exists...then realised that must be where I'd thrown myself to the floor in exhaustion after the lung busting finish!

Next thing I remember is my old man leaning over me apologising for laughing his head off and choking out a well done on a wild eyed finish. He was a 4:30 miler in his youth, and is delighted that I've finally got into running, albeit rather late in life.

All in all, bloody great stuff. I've enjoyed my parkrunning, but this was different gravy altogether. Can't wait for my next one.

Must add myself into that WAVA table later. 

Oh, and in case anyone's interested - here's what the Garmin recorded - including the evidence of the balls up at the start line...the race did in fact Start and Finish at exactly the same spot!


Edited: 04/03/2013 at 14:11
04/03/2013 at 16:48

BBB – Sounds like you enjoyed that one and a massive chunk under what you were predicting. Next target sub 45

Dan – At least you have a wava entry! My only eligible time is a parkrun tempo run. Can we add an excuses column on the end of the table

Duck – What’s the session focus in this phase of things then? When will you be looking to peak?

TOM – Good effort there – can’t complain at a £60 quid voucher....

45 miles clocked up last week so I think I’ve broken the back of this injury now. Added what I thought was a fastish last mile at the end of yesterday’s run only to see the garmin beep at 7.00! Oh dear.... Think I’ll have a bash at parkrun on Saturday to see where I’m at.  I suspect it may not make enjoyable reading

04/03/2013 at 18:34

Ooh, yes please on the excuses front! Had some halfway decent WAVA scores last year, but not so much this time around. I've decided that some innoculations I had last week are to blame for my malaise, so have let myself off. Gone from a lovely race to having 3 miles at 9m/m be a serious effort this morning! And yes, Dash, i think that's exactly where it'll go; love the phrasing.

Good training, Mr V, you ought to start really feeling fit now, if there's any justice.

Nice race report, BBB, and that's not too shabby at all - beat your target, and yet have some fairly obvious (with no offence intended) consistency to aim for to top it next time! I always think it's good to try a few different approaches; going out hard, deliberately holding back, and so on, but to my mind you absolutely cannot beat a rival coming past, hanging on and then storming past for a good performance, and feeling like it was the same.

Good luck with stepping up into comp mode, Duck and at Bradford Dr Dan.

04/03/2013 at 18:43
Mr Viper wrote (see)

Dan – At least you have a wava entry! My only eligible time is a parkrun tempo run. Can we add an excuses column on the end of the table

Can you put me there too?  If I put down my 600m (and yes, a WAVA does exist for those lunatics that put on races between sprinters and MDers) it would be a slightly glossy view of the true state of play.  Next race is the big one, so I don't foresee a WAVA starting with a 7.

BBB, racing can be even more enjoyable than just running, can't it?  And that sounded like a great race!

Nice one, TOM.

Ten miles for me tonight.  Great test of the willpower as I got off the treadmill after 45mins for a wee and still got back onto it again!  Can someone explain to me why, if there are eight treadmills and only mine is being used, that short, fat bloke climbs onto the one next to mine to take a walk?  Right, bedtime, as I've got to be back on that treadmill in the morning...

04/03/2013 at 18:51
BBB - great race report! However, remembering that much details just proves you weren't working hard enough all the way round, so please pull your finger out and make some effort next time

TOM - nice race and 1st V40 from you... Enjoy spending the voucher on some new shoes.

Could someone please add me to the WAVA table with my 19:59 5k in March, which is a 68.82% grading... Like Dr Dan I need to find a way back into the 70% category...

MrV - glad you're back off the bench.
04/03/2013 at 21:35

BBB, good report. Going off too fast is very easy to do (as we all well know ), but you recovered well by running off those in front. As for the finish... want to try an open 400? 

Mr V - good news on a breakthrough week! I'll answer your question below as I have a bit to talk about regarding training now.

Ratzer, 10 on a treadmill? I'm bored just thinking about that  

So a bit of self-indulgence now.

The plan basically from now on is to whip myself into 400/800 shape, which isn't quite as easy as it sounds. Were I running 800/1500 it would be a fairly simple matter of keeping a respectable amount of mileage, nailing the 300s/800s/1ks etc with a bit of quicker than 800 pace thrown in (probably in the form of open 200s/400s). 

However just 1 lap of the track can make quite a difference to training. 400/800 really is a crossover in terms of running, going from sprints to endurance - which requires quite a change in philosophy (as someone said to me once: "take endurance training, take the complete opposite and you've found sprint training"). 

I've done quite a bit of reading into the training of Juantorema, Cruz, Solomon etc (all 400/800 types) and the big thing that separates the training is lower volume with higher intensity (i.e. faster) repeats. 

A traditional sub-2'04 800 workout (for your 800/1500 type) might be something like 2*5*200 in 31s, w/60s between reps + 3-4'00 between sets. My sessions now will be slightly different - I have sessions like 3*3*200 in 29-30s w/45s between reps + 3'00 between sets planned. 

Now a 400 runner might do sessions like 2*300 w/10'00 rec (not coincidentally I have this exact session planned) - low volume but very high intensity. So what I've essentially tried to do is combine both approaches to find a middle ground that will provide the endurance which I undoubtedly need, along with the high intensity/low volume sprint approach. 

Along with this I'm keeping over-distance stuff going too for longer specific endurance training (which will help in the final 100/200m). Sessions like 600s in 1'41, 500s in 1'20 (both w/long rec), and mile paced workouts of course will help here. 

Later on in training I'll be doing more traditional 800 workouts like 4*400, 2*600 etc, but for the most part I'll be working around 600m pace which is speed training for the 800 and stamina training for the 400. 

Later on there will be max speed endurance workouts as well. I've put it on google docs if anyone want to have a look.

Edited: 04/03/2013 at 21:45
04/03/2013 at 21:36

Holla All, just back from a long weekend at Centre Parcs, not much running due to injury and I took two right foot trainers, doh!!!
I just bought two pairs of the same shoes due to a bargain online price (2 x Green Silence for £53 delivered) and I somehow got the pairs mixed up. So my only run was in a pair of sneakers/fashion type trainers! Anyway, Centre Parcs was great, it would have been a fab place to run but alas I didn’t feel up to it after a very tough run in said sneakers on Friday evening. Anyway more of that later, now for a catch up…..

Top bombing Bob!!!! Great report n’all.
Shall we open up a sweepstake to see who can predict how much Bob will take off his 10k time next time out? I predict a big crash through sub 45 taking another 1 minute 27 seconds off his best.

Alehouse – great to see you posting about a parkrun again, nice to put down a benchmark time to beat.

Good to see Dash properly out of the closet and into posting again, you big nonsense merchant!

Same to you Dr Dan, you are less of a nonsense merchant

Stevie – good work on the long overdue sub 17min 5k, sub 16:30 has to be on the cards with a bit of 5k specific work I would have thought?

Mr V – good to see you posting about miles again and a good bit of philosophy the other night.

Kelly – well toughed out the other day at XC, I am in the don’t quit unless injured or ill camp, don’t want to be setting those kinds of benchmarks. I have backed off and dipped into survival mode mid race before mind, I don’t see that as quitting though.

Top bombing at York Wardi!

Phil that MP session you posted the other day was immense, the mind boggles!!!! That 2:30 thread might need a read sooner rather than later if you carry on the way you are going.

Good to see Ratzer firmly in amongst the early morning miles, enjoy Russia, maybe you pulled the fat sweaty bloke

Curly – cracking progressive long run posted on Sunday.

YP – great parkrun / long run with MP combo, plenty training bang for your buck there.

TOM nice loot chasing,  enjoy plimsole shopping.

Edited: 04/03/2013 at 21:41
04/03/2013 at 21:45

Bit of an injury update, I did see a physio last Thursday, he says I have wonky hips! There is a lack of flexibility on my left hip, this is causing my hips to rotate right (1pm on a clock face)when I run. As a consequence my left leg is coming over towards the right side when I step with that leg, the left glute isn’t firing, my left adductor is weak and the lower leg is doing all the work. To top it off, my right quad is bigger and stronger as that is doing a bigger proportion of the overall running load.
I have known for a while that my left glute doesn’t fire as fast as the right glute, but never knew it was because I am wonky!
The reason that I have started to get the pain in the back of the knee/hammie/calf recently is simply a recent increase in training volume and lower parts of my left leg are taking the brunt of that increase.
Physio has given me some exercises to remedy it and I am going back to see him again on Thursday.
He seemed confident that he will have me back in full training quite soon, I have to say I am not sure yet, but I will stick with the plan and hopefully I can run some reasonable miles this week.
4.05 miles tonight with some discomfort but not unmanageable, planning frequent short runs this week (physio agreed with this plan) and will increase the miles as the discomfort eases.

Edited: 04/03/2013 at 22:01
04/03/2013 at 22:52

Hello all 

I haven't posted for about a year but have been lurking and watching your progress with interest. Got injured last March, and its been a long slow road to recovery, partly due to my own worries about pushing things too soon. I finally feel like I'm getting the fitness back I had last spring. Did the Devilla 15k trail race as tester but the ankle deep mud didn't make for a fast time but it was a good day out none the less. 

YD I had a big variation in the strength of my legs (I was diagnosed with 'crap biomechanics'!) But they are now almost even, the phizz did lots of work to release the muscles and I've been doing constant strength work, lots of clams with bands etc. 

Edited: 04/03/2013 at 22:53
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