The Middle Ground

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07/03/2013 at 17:03

Hi all! Sorry been having posting problems the last few days.

Anyway good club session on Tues with 6 x 5 mins off 90secs jog recovery average pace 7:03 (roughly HMP) feeling pretty decent throughout 18 miles on the bike, then 10.5 miles last night @ 9:11 and 8 on the bike. Just 10 on the bike tonight which is nice.

Been sleeping lots as usual, but still not able to lose any lbs. At my lowest previous racing weight, but just cannot shoft anymore (BMI now 20-21 so not like I'm underweight or anything). Ho hum.

Hilly sorry to hear you are still struggling

Good luck to Phil for the weekend

BBB I'd agree - scale back your racing plans for now. It will benefit you in the future.

Ratzer not sure how you ran for 1:45 on the treadmill. Blimey!

Great race report from WJH - hope the long run session goes well!


07/03/2013 at 17:22

BBB - Looks sensible enough.  It took me a long time to get my head round the idea of race as hard training session, although maybe it's easier if part of a series.

Ratzer - An hour longer than I've ever managed on a single treadmill session.  No ta!

Good stuff Curly.  I know you're not rushing to race on two wheels, but as I said to my running mate the other day - all good "free" aerobic exercise as far as abuse to the running muscles/joints is concerned.

Hmmm... weight.  Whilst tapering over the past few days I've been having the odd extra cheeky afternoon bowl of cereal, and calling it a carb-load!  I will be racing for a good couple of hours on Saturday, so I think I can get away with that. Just about. 

I made the mistake of using a different set of weighing scales the other day.  First weigh-in since Christmas Eve and it reckons I've put on 2 lbs!  Erm... yeah right!  Given that this was a proper job with sliding thingummies along the top bit, all this is probably telling me is that my dad's scales have the same bias as GAP jean sizes, i.e. rather flattering.  If it's any consolation to those worrying about a BMI point or two, apparently I'm 11st 7, which puts me at a BMI of 23.  Whatever.  The beanpoles at the club would say "Just think how quick you'd be if you lost some weight." My glass-half-full attitude is "I can pack a bit of muscle and still run quick." 

07/03/2013 at 17:29

I think I need to get down to Gap. Despite reducing the calorie intake I can't shift any weight: it is probably due to a complete lack of running...I seem to be back on the bench after Saturday's parkrun. THe "good" calf is a problem and was told last night not to run. Walk, stretch, heat, walk stretch, heat etc etc. Frustrating, particularly as the leg that I had the Achilles op on is coping fine, plus I feel zero problems post prostate treatment. Hope I am not talking too soon on that one!

CB: not sure yet whether I will be at Trafford...Mother's Day!

07/03/2013 at 21:11

YD, true that. At the end of the day if I come away feeling like hell then the session was a success 

Good to see you ticking over still. I see on fb not such good news? 

WJH, good splits, looks like you were fairly even the whole way through. 

Mr V (and YD) - the Brooks T7 is a decent, light shoe that's not too expensive either. Worth a look perhaps. 

BBB - yeah, she's up there (she's 3rd in the all-time V50 mile, last year she was ranked 10th for 5k, 4th for 10k, 6th for 10M & 13th for HM). We used to be quite close in terms of times, but the last year I've pulled ahead. She does get elite entries to the local/semi-local races but she's not that bothered about competing nationally. 

For Saturday, just go out hard-comfortable for the first 2k then see what happens. I reckon you could do 21'xx given the right conditions if you convert well.

Sleep - I can get one decent session on lack of sleep, after that, no chance!

velloo - you're Edinburgh aren't you? 

Nice training Curly. I'm at a bit of a weight impasse myself, stuck around 158, which isn't bad at all but for competition I'd probaby like to be 155. 

Decent hour's run this morning - first 2M around 8:30s, last few close to 7:30/m. Getting lighter in the mornings  400/300/200/300/400 reasonably early tomorrow. 

07/03/2013 at 21:11
Ratzer - aye, would be nice to race the guy in question. Would probably spur us both on, but alas we're on opposite sides of the Midlands. Fascinating stuff this sitting too long theory. Remarkable that it can potentially offset the effects of vigorous exercise to such an extent. Find it quite hard to believe personally,but there does seem to be a growing body of evidence to support it. Food for thought...whilst getting up and wandering about obviously, rather than sitting in a chair and stroking your chin!

Phil and Curly - Right. Advice noted. Will resist the temptation to overdo the racing and try to only really target the parkruns once or twice a month at most. Good variety of training going on there from you by the sounds of it Curly!

And yes, weight. I'm getting a bit fed up with folk telling me I've lost too much weight, or 'ooh, you're not going to lose any more are you?'

Tiresome. As mentioned earlier, I'm over 6' 1" and have been stable at 11st 8lb for some months now. Gives me a BMI of over 21 and just about smack in the middle of the normal range. Yes, most people probably do carry more weight than me, and I have done myself throughout adulthood until recently, but that's because we're a nation where being a fat feck is increasingly the norm. I'm tempted to lose another couple or three pounds (certainly no more than that), but I don't think I can be arsed with the earache!

Alehouse - sorry to hear your comeback has been stopped in its tracks so abruptly. Hope it's a brief pause.
07/03/2013 at 21:31
Duck - cross-post. Remarkable stuff from your old lady. 3rd on the all time V50 mile list! Looks like she's still getting quicker too despite the advancing years! Great stuff.

And yep, that will be the plan on Saturday. Looks like there's a few more at the Rushcliffe Parkrun who will probably be running at about the pace I'm looking for than at my 'home' Colwick run. Hopefully that will help drag me round too. I've all too often found myself running alone there - forever seem to be in something of a gap between the committed athletes and the casual runners.
Edited: 07/03/2013 at 21:32
07/03/2013 at 22:23

Duck yes I'm in Edinburgh, I think the furthest north I travelled to a race last year was Glen Clova.

Just been to a running-workshop and the Edinburgh AC coach recommended training sessions at above intended race pace which baffled me a bit as I thought you trained at current fitness levels. Unless he meant if training for a half do sessions at 10k+5K pace, but that's not what he seemed to be saying. Any thoughts on such an approach?

Curly sounds like a good club session. The only time I got BMI into the 18 range was following a dose of winter vomiting, not the best training strategy!

07/03/2013 at 22:43

No music links for me, maybe the Steptoe theme tune for Dash

Looking forward to hearing that you have smashed that chef and his fancy bike this weekend Phil

Vellooo – nice reps last night, especially the 3rd one  I don’t have a problem with trying to run at target pace, but the session should be adjusted accordingly and paces should be introduced in shorter bursts at first. Example, you might think 5 x 1m @ 10k pace off 2 mins is doable. If it was 10k target pace I might be tempted to start with 7 x 1k at target pace and build up to 4 x 1m in time.

Good session Curly

How were the MP reps Ratzer (not intervals before Alehouse gets me!)?

fingers crossed it’s just a minor blip on the comeback trail.

Bob – use parkruns to test different pacing strategies out, don’t fret of you balls it up on Sat, there’s always next week!

Duck – nice easy pace for you this morning, more on the injury below…

I have been to see the physio again, he gave my quads, hammies and hips a right pounding, it bloody hurt! He has recommended I take a week off running to give the hamstring damage time to heal while I work on the exercises he has given me (some new extra tough ones tonight).
He is sure it’s not serious I just need to get my legs balanced out, but I reckon the Manchester Marathon is off for me now, at least as a race. Edinburgh the month after might be an option, depends how soon I get back to proper training really.
Not too upset, there’s plenty good races to target once I am fit again!

08/03/2013 at 10:07

Ah, MP reps, YD... Failed last night following a long, interesting walk.  Did them this morning but on surprisingly tired legs.  Managed 4 MP miles at the same pace as Tuesday but they felt more like 10kP-Threshold, until I discovered that the treadmill gradient was set slightly high and adjusted sometime in the third mile.  Too late by then.  Combination of initial tiredness and mounting fatigue did for me, plus the prospect of another long walk today (Russia is on holiday) and a desire to fit a few more easy miles in this evening.

Not good to hear about the latest results and your thoughts on them.  I would say if you think the Manchester Marathon is off, take it off.  Don't even consider your first marathon as a race, it's a fact-finding mission - so if it's off as a fact-finding mission, then it should be completely off.

Right, off to the Kremlin.  Bit late really today, but I've got the whole weekend.

08/03/2013 at 10:32
YD, really bad news - sorry to hear that's the diagnosis and probable outcome. Hopefully Edinburgh is an option as you've been going so well recently.

Ratzer, ditto on slower sessions. My 400/400/300/300/200 (equal jog rec.) today was relatively slow - didn't feel hard but didn't have any pace. Felt like I was running 29.xx effort for the 200, and it came out at 32! 10 hours at work yesterday may have had something to do with it. In any case I got a mile at ~4.30/m avg without it being exhausting which is pretty good.
08/03/2013 at 10:40

Duck – Thanks for the shoe recommendation though not sure I can get them in my size. I take at least a 13, usually a 14 so my choice is limited! I’ve decided I hate my new Asics. So much I can’t even run in them. Did 2 miles last night and had to return home and change shoes. My Brooks Launch felt like slippers in comparison. So that’s a massive waste of money and I still haven’t found a replacement for my Brooks Launch...

Bob – being naturally lean is a definite advantage for a runner. I’m 6ft 2 and 12 and a quarter stone (probably) at the moment. I’m usually under 12 when in full training so you have less to carry than me, even when I’m ‘lean.’

YD – Shame re the marathon but seems like you are taking it in the right way and as you say plenty of other races you can do.

08/03/2013 at 10:46

YD sorry to hear about the diagnosis... but I'm going to disagree with Ratzer here. Personally, I would still run the race but as an easy long run then take a week or two off training. The reason being, if you train for a race and reach a peak and then skip the race and try to plough on it can be difficult on the body and on your mental state. I wouldnt look to E'burgh for the same reason, but find a nice 10k to do a month after and then train for an autumn mara if you want to do another this year.

Ratzer sounds like you are getting lots in even if its tough going with being out of your usual routine.

Duck I find the same when I do long shifts at work... but nevermind the fatigue will melt off soon and the paces will be back!

Just about to head out for an easy 6, then the same tomorrow, then 21 on Sun with:

5 miles easy, 14 miles steady (moving up the range), cd

Should be interesting, doesnt feel as challenging as last week, but probably is!

08/03/2013 at 13:39
Sorry to hear of the marathon plans being derailed YD! If you do have to wait a bit longer then it will be even more satisfying to then hit your intended targets! I reckon you will with the hours and miles you put in!

Mr V - I have generally run about 35-38 miles a week for the past month or so (probably about 25 to low 30's in January so have built things up a bit since then largely due to the longer marathon runs!). Certainly not the level you have been doing with the base building!

Thanks Dash! I think it is just a case as I say of running more mileage recently! I still think that there are things I could do to improve though...I have only recently set out a schedule of sorts to take me up to Brighton although have been keeping a record of every training run and race I have done since January last year! I also suspect that I am better suited at the longer distances too so it will be interesting to see if i can get a WAVA matching up for the shorter races! Hope you build things up to where you want to be!

Duck - I knew you have said about your mum being fast before but THAT fast! Wow!!! Good reps from you too and from you as well Vellooo especially with it being so breezy!

Sounds like one step back to go two forwards Alehouse? Hope the calf niggle clears up!

BBB - so what do you prefer out of running and cricket? Or do they both go hand in hand? I play inline hockey and its a slippery slope downhill with all the youngsters coming through so for me personally, I get more enjoyment out of running these days. That's probably also because of playing a team game for so long whereas your running performance is solely down to the training and effort you put in yourself!

Weight is a subject I'm obsessed with because I do think its an area which I can improve with...currently about 12 stone 5 and five ft 9 so think there are improvements to be made there...easier said than done with me though!!!

So lot have really got me thinking on this. Hmmmm! I think I should man up and try for 3:30 then as long as I get the long runs in this month! At worst it won't work out but surely my knees won't let me down again like with previous attempts!? Maybe i'm being over cautious worrying on that? Planning on 20 tomorrow (combined with a Parkrun) but aiming to hit intended MP for the last 5/6 miles. Looking forward to it and equally dreading that thought at the same time! Perhaps that will go further towards narrowing down to an intended target time...Good luck with your planned effort tomorrow Curly, that sounds like a really tough training run but that's what it's all about isn't it!
08/03/2013 at 14:06

MP feeling like 10kp-Threshold is exactly how my last MP session felt before my recent breakdown. Take it easy Ratzer.

“In any case I got a mile at ~4.30/m avg without it being exhausting which is pretty good.” Excellent way of looking at it Duck

Mr V – I have brooks Green Silence and they are prtetty roomy, have you tried to get a pair of them? They are going cheap on the Sportshoes website.

21miles w/ 14 steady is a good workout Curly, what is steady, MP +30 seconds ish?
You will feel it the next day I would have thought.

WHJ – A 1:27 half should point to a faster than 3:30 Marathon I would have thought. Why don’t you go and canvass opinion on the 3:30 and 3:15 Marathon threads, get a broad range of opinions from those with experience and similar times under their belts?

Thanks for the well wishes and thoughts guys, been thinking about options, and should I decide to bin the spring Marathon altogether then I might look into autumn Marathon options.
Off the top of my head I can think of the folowing UK Marathons:
Yorkshire Marathon (full, not sure if I can get a spot if someone drops out, Mr V do you know what the rules are?)
Abingdon (full but can usually get a spot from what I hear)
Newcastle Town Moor
Wolverhampton – any others?

08/03/2013 at 14:24

Depends how big an event you want YD...

New Forest, Loch Ness, Isle of Wight, Bournemouth, Greensands, Northumberland Castles, Dublin, Portsmouth Coastal, Saxon shore and Cornish all in the autumn. No idea which are flat, suitable and on the right dates, but plenty on the starting list at least!

WJH man up and pick a faster target

08/03/2013 at 14:53

YD – Cheers I did look but unfortunately nothing in my size. I don’t think transfers are allowed for the Yorkshire Marathon. Shame as I could do with some company (not that I’d be keeping pace!) You can’t beat Abingdon’s reputation if you think you can get a spot.

WJH – I’m no marathon expert so wouldn’t want to suggest a pace. 3.30 still seems a little on the conservative side with a 1.27 half to your name. However I suppose your mileage base is relatively small in terms of converting really well to the full marathon.

08/03/2013 at 15:15
Come do Loch Ness YD and you can stay with us

Mr V - 14 in Brooks? Wow O_O Brooks aren't exactly small either...

Curly, true. Was a bit frustrating to feel like I was flying without pushing the pace then to see 71 cor 400!

Looks a nice little session to look forward to
08/03/2013 at 16:58

Just looked it up Mr V, number swaps are not permitted, oh well.

Curly, I would prefer a road Marathon that gives me an opportunity for a decent time. Chester or Abingdon sound like the best options for that. Wolverhampton, Town Moor and Northumberland Castles might be races I can position high in and run reasonable times, so could be maybe options. I will look into some of the others you have suggested, thanks.

Duck – thanks for the offer, doesn’t sound like a race to run a fast time at! Bet the views are nice though…..

WHJ - yea as others have said man up   

08/03/2013 at 20:01

YD Sorry it looks like the marathon is off, but if you decide to do Edinburgh I can tell you all about the course or any other local info you need. Moray marathon in Sept is supposed to be a good one, I think it's fairly flat.

WHJ exciting times! sub 3.30 sounds more than possible!

08/03/2013 at 21:31
Y D - Loch Ness is hard! Hills are very hard on the legs, I wouldn't choose that as a first marathon.

Edinburgh is a great course but is usually rough weather wise - I'm doing the HM this year, starts at 8am, yawn. The two years I did the marathon were 27 degrees plus and with it being out and back, the wind can be a real issue.

You know how I feel about Town Moor, ha.

Abingdon is fab.

Join Minni in the Castles marathon.

WHJ - yes, man up. I did 3.28 off a 1.35 the month before.

I would have thought 1.27 would convert closer to 3.15, although to be realistic, your mileage probably wouldn't support it this time around.

Curly - you are doing some monster sessions lately
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