The Middle Ground

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18/04/2013 at 09:37

Si, Duck - Thanks for the advice, but, yes - target pace tonight is around 1 hour / LT pace, though not for the full 4 miles. After a mile's warmup, will progress the first mile at tempo up to approx HM pace, and then plan to hit and try to hold at approx. 7:20 pace for the next 3 miles (so, around 22 mins) before a final mile warm down. Appreciate it's a tough session, and is why it's a month since I've tackled it. Not sure I understand why I wouldn't necessarily get the desired training effect though, Simon - can you explain? I'm basically working to the theory at the moment that whilst I ration my hard sessions, I do ensure those sessions are hard, and try to include as much variety in all my runs as possible and thus give myself a wide range of training stimuli. So, over the last few weeks, amongst the easy and long stuff, I've included intervals, as well as some shorter tempo sessions, parkruns, a couple of other races, and plan to reintroduce a bit more hillwork over the weekend or early next week which I've overlooked recently. A periodic session like this does also give me the opportunity to track progress and particularly appeals to the stats geek side of my nature. Since starting some strengthening work, I've (touch wood)  stayed healthy and even niggle free, and with progress generally continuing to be good I guess what I'm saying through all that waffle is that I'd need a bit more convincing as to why this session isn't a good idea! 

And I'll go bold  and predict 17:19 for your 5000m at the weekend, Simon...provided you lay off the burgers. 

Mr V - Mmmmm, meat. The missus is a veggie so for the sake of simplicity, I do end up eating veggie most nights of the week too. Probably no bad thing though, and it does make me appreciate the meat all the more when I do have it! Good luck with getting your system back on an even keel, and glad to hear your session last night went well. Hope it's a corner turned.

Good report, WJH! Lots of hiccups along the way by the sounds of it to try to throw you out of your stride, but take them in your stride you did, so well done - and great work with those splits. 

Kelly - Congrats on the gold - you've got to be in to win it.  

18/04/2013 at 10:04

WJH great race report - I suspect your slowing was due to the head wind as nearly everyone's splits I've seen suffer the same over the last miles from the power station to the turn into the final road (where it was slightly less in the face).

Your plans for the summer and beyond sound good - nice variety but a real target to aim for in Cardiff half. I would make that your next A race and use the other bits as training blocks, that should help keep the motivation up.

I still have to decide about the rest of my plans for the year, I'll let you know when I do. I have a slight cold (well a sore throat anyway), so am resting up but am starting to get twitchy now to go out tonight, but will use the N+1 rule and leave it till tomorrow. Legs are almost fully recovered now and I can cycle without ouch so thats a good sign I think.

Duck/Simon yes both elements I would like to work on for my next marathon.

Simon good luck for the 5000m - I've got a 400m race on Saturday Its okay though they know I've only just done a marathon so arent expecting anything fast. Its just a marker for next time!

Kelly oh my you poor thing! Good to get a gold medal though - you can only beat who turns up after all

Mr V sorry about your problems continuing - you have been tested for gluten havent you? Its just if you are having problems absorbing things its likely you will be deficient in multiple nutrients and vitamins as well which could be leading your legs to be wiped out.

Mace lol that doesnt sound like a good running style to me but I'll take it as a compliment. I was running at that point with my other half, who met me later on in the race as I slowed down! How did you do?

18/04/2013 at 12:39

Curly, it's meant as a compliment  ... you looked effortless

My chip was 3:16:52 , with about 1min positive split. There's some grim buggers in this lot especially hanging on at the end

18/04/2013 at 12:42

WJH - fantastic ....well done!

You, Curly and Mace just need to be sensible now ... I felt invincible after my last mara and ended up very badly injured a few weeks later. Take some time to recover properly.

18/04/2013 at 12:43

Never had a mid race rage incident. I once got annoyed by someone draughting me on a windy day, so I pulled out and told him it was his turn, he obliged.

Vellooo – that sounded like a respectable Half Marathon performance in windy conditions the other day.

Duck – same comment I made to Velloo, wind is a bugger. Stop slagging Perth off, I have family there (the McHoldsworth’s  )

Simon – that 3,000m time was decent considering you’re a fatty.

Mr V – welcome to the world of meat, oh err. Offal is where it’s at these days…….
Good news the session went well last night. As for the Yorkshire Marathon, yep me too, I quite fancy it now, think it will take a while for me to build up though. If I get in, we should meet up for a couple of long runs when I am up North or you are down visiting your folks. I know some good routes near Sutton Bank that will get you strong, also some good running around the Helmsley area.

Kelly – hope the cold and caugh clear soon. You are made of tough stuff running when under the weather, I wouldn’t run, but I am a wimp.

WHJ – enjoyed the report and well done on some good pacing. That slow first mile was probably a blessing.
As for your next set of targets, I would just have a few weeks of just running without a serious focus. After a while you will be chomping at the bit to get back into it and chasing times again. From that list there are plenty of good options for you to go at.
Impressed with your recovery, expecially considering you played roller hockey on Monday!
As for my recovery see bellow:

Last week I reported feeling a bit blergh. Well it developed into a sore throat, high temperature feeling crap type thing. So no running from last Wednesday through to Tuesday this week. On Tuesday I ran 2.6 miles outside, felt horrible (virus sweating out) but leg ok.
Yesterday lunchtime I ran 3 miles outside with some hills and 5 miles on the treadmill last night. No complaints from my leg, but I tired quite a bit towards the end of the 5 miler. So plenty work to do…..
Plan is to rest today with some core work tonight; then test the leg a little bit more with a slightly longer run outside on Friday 3.5 - 4 miles. I will probably do something a bit more testing on the treadmill over the weekend, tempo lite type run and then take it from there.

X-post Mace, some good neck gurning there. You may have invented a new category of gurning  Good time as well, 1 min positive split is good going, well done.

Edited: 18/04/2013 at 12:48
18/04/2013 at 12:54

YD - "neck gurning" ... love it  and thanks

18/04/2013 at 13:22

Well done Mace - was that a pb? Good pacing there (unlike me)

LOL about neck gurning!

Good news about the return YD seems like the illness might have come at the right time to help you ease back in.

Dont worry Dr Dan I'm taking lots of rest, no plans for target races until the 10k on 19th May only done two runs so far of 20 minutes. In fact "run" might be a bit generous jog/hobble is a bit more like it.

18/04/2013 at 13:27

Just spotted the videos - I do run like a race walker!!! Oh dear - especially clear on the 21km one:

18/04/2013 at 13:42

Curly, first one so yes it was a pb

How wonderful to cross the finish line with your other half  And i guess you must be pretty evenly matched ....

18/04/2013 at 14:19
mace wrote (see)

Curly, first one so yes it was a pb


A triumph of Hadd training.

18/04/2013 at 14:39

YD – I think offal might take some building up to  Hopefully your enforced week off will actually benefit your leg. I’m defo up for a couple of long runs once we get to mara prep time.

Curly – Recovery looks to be going well for you. Good luck with the 400 – will be nice to get a base time you can then smash later in the year.

Mace – Excellent pacing there and some half decent gurns as well!

18/04/2013 at 17:38
Just back from the GP and unsurprisingly - a chest infection.

Got myself a week's worth of antibiotics, so hopefully it will take a hike and let me get back to running.

Curly - I'd rather look like a race walker than a shuffling elephant like me

Mace - superb pacing, especially for a first time marathon. Do you have any other race times?

YD - sounds promising for recovery, apart from the cold.

Mr V - talking of bacon last night reminded me I had some prosciutto in the fridge so I had that and poached eggs for tea. It was delicious!

Dr Dan - how are you doing? How is the foot?
19/04/2013 at 06:29
Kaysdee - thanks, I've been improving since ( as Dr Dan mentions ) taking up HADD about a year ago so my conversions are a bit skewed. I raced a half end of sept in 1:47:xx then raced a 10 in December 71:13. McMillan predicts a 3:21 or thereabouts from my 10M time

Take care with the chest infection.
19/04/2013 at 09:41

YD - Not much luck for you at the moment - hope you get back out there today.

Great vid, Curly! Slight refinement to the technique, plenty of training, and it's off to Rio for the 20km walk for you! 

Kelly - The antibiotics should sort you out, probably already having an effect? As a regular sufferer, I usually feel much better in myself within a day, and the chest begins clearing after a couple. Can't believe you raced with it though?! Crazy in the coconut.

Great result, mace - well done!

Interesting session last night. Breezy warm up heading down to the Trent, turned on to the riverside itself, and WHAM - straight into the teeth of a 25mph westerly. Rendered the individual splits pretty meaningless, but felt like about the right level of effort throughout. 7:55 for the first mile, target 7:41, and was then after around 7:20 pace for the next three. Failed miserably still struggling into the wind for the first mile at 7:34, crossed the bridge to double back on myself about half way through the second, 7:23, before the wind finally helped a bit for much of the third mile in 6:54. Averages out at just below 7:17 pace for the 3 key miles with Mcmillan predicting 7:16 LT pace off my 21:13 5k time. Pleased with that - good session, was hard but didn't leave me feeling wrecked, certainly much easier than the last time I attempted a similar session at a noticeably slower pace a month ago. Legs in decent shape today, though it's a rest day anyway. Sportsmans' dinner with the cricket club for a now rare big session on the booze tonight. First time most of the lads will have seen me since I lost over two stone, and expecting lots of amusement and not inconsiderable ridicule when I tell them I'm trying to turn myself into a runner!

19/04/2013 at 10:11
BBB - can you believe I was accused yesterday of being stubborn and pigheaded? He's supposed to love me too!

Enjoy tonight.
19/04/2013 at 10:26

I'm sure his plain speaking of the undeniable truth doesn't make him love you any less, Kelly! 

P.S. Just got myself 4 tickets for the family and I for the Sunday of the Anniversary Games at the Olympic Stadium this summer.  


19/04/2013 at 11:16

Sounds like an excellent session Bob. Increasing paces (wind or no) as the session progresses is always a good sign. Enjoy the Sportsmans’ dinner tonight.

Curly – will check the speed walking video out late.

– stubborn, never  Good luck with the antibiotics.

4 mile run for me this morning, felt ok, no problems whatsoever at the back of the knee or any of the other spots on the hamstring that have been an issue recently.
I was getting a flicker or a feeling, call it a phantom or extra tiredness in my adductor (I think it’s the Garcilis in this case not the main adductor muscle) and top of the thigh / hip flexor area (Sartorius maybe – sorry been googling ).
My theory is that as a result of all the strengthening and re-alignment work I have done these muscles are being used in a slightly different way to before. I think it will just be a case of building up slowly. its just these muscles are working slightly differently since the injury.
Oh and 8:00/mi pace felt like hard work, I have a lot of fitness to get back!

19/04/2013 at 13:51

Kelly well that does make sense re: coughing and chest infection, usually the anti b's kick in after 4 doses or so, and please remember N+1 for your return to running!

I'm off out for a little jog in a mo - legs have felt fine since yesterday and cold is fine too so going to see how they are before my 400m tomorrow

BBB cheeky buggar  Nice work on your session though well done on slogging that out in the wind. Mighty fine improvement over such a short space of time (can all you newbies stop beating my times please )

YD that sounds promosing, except the over googlingitis, fitness will come back quickly as you know.

Sooo, have made a decision, with Moraghan to not do an autunm mara this year and just plough straight through to VLM next year. The main thinking being to do with training weeks versus recovery weeks. If I want to get where I want to be by April, its easier off more training (obviously) but every marathon requires at least 7 weeks of reduced or no training so its better for me to practice pacing in other ways and train in those weeks instead.

Definitely up for Gosport as the A target for the autumn as well - WJH you can pace me to a decent time

19/04/2013 at 14:10

Howdy peeps!

Kelly - Still going through the wars.  Get well soon!!

YD - No idea on your theory but sounds like progress of a sort.  At least you've managed to avoid the turbo.

Curly - Good plan.  I really enjoy a target HM without a marathon to worry about, just seems to hit my sweet-spot of training intensities vs volume.  Depending on how friends and club mates' mid/long term social/training plans pan out, my next marathon after VLM could be Berlin '14.

Aaaah, carb load time!  This afternoon (on top of my usual lunch and fruity snacks) I will mostly be eating a pesto pasta salad, 12 Jaffa cakes, and possibly an extra bowl of cereal, depending on how the Jaffa cakes go down. Tomorrow's mid-morning extra cheeky snack will be a Soreen malt loaf with lashings of raspberry jam.  This all adds up to an extra carb calorie count of... actually I haven't got a feckin' clue, but I reckon it'll do the job.   

19/04/2013 at 14:17

Bob, your session looks fine, my point is that there can be a few problems with spending too long at a certain training pace: 1) harder sessions take longer to recover from, 2) the longer you spend at a pace the higher the intensity and the likelihood that you are running too hard (this is mitigated if you run to HR, rather than pace) 3) Running form can suffer because of fatigue and loss of alertness.

I think that a good approach to a session is to try and spend as long as possible at an intensity while minimising the amount of stress. In fact, this is the principle behind interval sessions. The approach is widely taken with VO2 max training but it doesn't seem so often with threshold training.

My favourites:

WU; 20' @ T; 15' jog; 15' @ T; CD

WU; 3 x 1 mile @ T with 1' jog recovery; 15' jog; 2 x 1 mile with 1' jog recovery; CD

With these session I can spend 5-6 miles running at threshold intensity, but the recoveries ensure that I am not over-stressing myself and can recover quite well.

I managed to get a couple of tickets for the Sunday too, but the whole ticketing process was an absolute joke. I'm going to just boycott ticketmaster from now on and anybody that associates with them.

Mr V, it does sound like it could be diet-related given your restrictions. Do you plan to seek professional nutritional advice? Hope you're enjoying the meat. I was vegetarian for a few years (trying to impress a girl at college - it didn't work). When I went back to meat I had a salmon salad one day, then it was KFC the following and a kebab not long after. Dunno if that'd help your running though.

YD, I would have thought it more likely you have adjusted your gait (unconciously or not) to try and avoid pain and that's the cause.

Curly, I think race walkers take both feet off the ground more often Any ideas what you'll manage for the 400?

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