The Middle Ground

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26/04/2013 at 06:57
Duck- spot on. Played centre mid and was basically the bloke who chased the ball down and gave it to the skilful players.
First run since VLM yesterday. Did an easy 5 miles round Hyde Park which felt anything but easy!
Edited: 26/04/2013 at 06:59
26/04/2013 at 10:20

YD – Thanks for posting. I’ve looked at the post Brass Monkey stuff as I guess that is the marathon specific phase. I like the basic structure though as you’ve said there is lots of quality in there. Remind me what the idea behind doing more shorter tempo work as marathon day approaches was? Is that something you would include this time around? I’ve PMed you regarding what we talked about yesterday. Could post on here as well for other’s input?

Duck – Looking good there. Looking forward to seeing how your race times improve this year.

An enjoyable session of 7x 0.5 mile last night. Best I’ve felt for a long while. First 6 reps averaged just over 2.50. Average somewhat ruined by the final rep at 3.24 but that was uphill and into a huge headwind.

26/04/2013 at 10:23

Duck - Great paces! Hope you get that conducive 400 race lined up soon - will be interesting to see what you produce.

Point taken and advice noted, Curly...though I'm sticking to my reason (excuse) that it was a combination of the wind and my own over paced first two recoveries that caused the issue at the back end of the third repeat.  I guess some would take more than the two minute recoveries I aimed for on the first occasion they tried a 4 x 1k repeats session anyway? My thinking (flawed or not) behind the session was that I was using it more for getting some more actual speed into my legs rather than looking for the speed endurance as it's something I only do once every fortnight at most. Probably ought to use shorter reps for that I know, but it's again all part of my attempt to keep things as simple as possible for as long as possible. Certainly wouldn't be looking to increase the pace on this one next time I tackle it anyway, and the focus for the next 2 or 3 weeks in my quicker sessions will be 10k pace rather than 5k pace. And regarding the walk / 10min mile pacing, I nearly did make a quip in your direction but decided you'd probably taken enough stick on that already so bottled it! 

iower - Another excellent 5k from you there. Top banana. Also, I was looking at the Run Britain Rankings this morning, and noticed a new entrant in the top 10 improvers for the month - those times look familiar. Assuming I've not been duped by a remarkable coincidence, well done! Parkrun tomorrow to consolidate your position?

Cricket nets and an easy 3 miles double for me last night. First time I've picked up a bat since August, and didn't feel too alien, though not sure how walking out to open the batting at 1.30pm tomorrow afternoon is going to feel as the bowling I faced was rather friendly (hopeless might be more accurate) to say the least! Still, I'm more interested in what I can produce at parkrun in the morning than the afternoon's cricket at the moment - probably says something about my shifting priorities.

26/04/2013 at 10:43

BBB - I had one of my rare cricket dreams last night! I was batting against some pretty dreary bowling and hit a couple of cracking fours.  The first was one of my favourite shots - I'm shit at batting so there aren't many to choose from - a pull shot picking up a half-volley outside off stump, one bounce over the rope to point, followed by a classic drive over the bowler's left shoulder to long on.  Could this have been brought on by going for a drink last night with an old cricket buddy I haven't seen in years? I did say to him that I wouldn't be rushing back to play (umpire/taxi/score...) for the side any time soon, but might consider a guest appearance if he can sort out a fixture on that lovely pitch over the road in Greenwich Park.  Good luck with the upcoming season. 

Drink report: a couple of pints of Dark Energy stout (4.9%)... er... no, I'm struggling now! A pint of a very dark IPA @ 7%, a pint of something else, and a Kingfisher to wash down the lamb jalfrezi, cheesy peas, saag aloo and cheesy naan.  The marathon recovery/slob-out continues! 

Duck - Thanks for asking.  My thighs feel normal again. Stairs feel normal.  Lower calves still a little tender.  Will hold out on running till at least tomorrow morning, but possibly just favour cycling this weekend if the weather's kind.

MrV - To pitch in re: shorter tempo work leading up to the marathon, my understanding is that there's a kind of continuum to how long it takes to either build-up or lose different types of fitness depending on the intensity, i.e. pure endurance takes a long time to build up, but stays with you, whereas at the other end, VO2 max will drop off more quickly if you don't do any training, but can be topped up fairly quickly.  So the shorter tempo work is done, partly because all the real endurance stuff is done and in the bag (and to continue with high volume training will mean you're not recovering in time for the race), but also because you can top-up your threshold fitness, without causing further damage.  The added bonus is that it helps minimise the sluggish feeling you get during taper, and mentally gives you confidence that you're still capable of running quicker than target pace, at a time when doubts can start creeping in. And it makes marathon pace on the day, to begin with at least, feel very easy.

26/04/2013 at 13:05

Nice session, Mr V. You're getting there.

Phil - Thanks, still looking forward to the cricket season (despite the new
competition it has for my affections), and we're hoping for a good 'un having
narrowly missed out on promotion last season - we'd have been promoted under the new 2013 rules in fact. I've been known to lose hours on that ratebeer site BTW and love the sound of that stout, right up my street...sounds like a good night all round in fact!

Right, cricket pedant's hat on: - 

"...a pull shot picking up a half-volley outside off stump, one bounce over the rope to point" - an attempted pull off a half-volley?! Sounds more like an attempted ugly moo over cow corner to me...and if it's gone one bounce over the rope at point, you must have got an enormous outside edge on it!

"...a classic drive over the bowler's left shoulder to long on" - assume you're a cack-hander then if it's gone over his left shoulder to long on...unless it was his
left shoulder as you looked at it? Sounds like a nice shot anyway - the on drive is
something I've never really got to grips with!

Cricket pedant's hat off again...I'm jealous of your cricket dreams. Mine are
rubbish, and usually involve me scrabbling around to get my kit on in time to not be
timed out by the umpire...probably something to do with my guilt over an horrendous sense of time-keeping seeping over into dreams about something I love!

26/04/2013 at 14:00

Gah!! I spotted my first mistake after posting but things went a bit funny and I couldn't edit.  Not a pull shot at all, a genuine "late cut". A gem, it was.  As for long on/off, that's just me being scatty.

This was a strangely normal scenario for me.  My other cricket dreams usually involve bowling, but trying to deliver something distinctly less spherical than a cricket ball, usually a stick or something. They don't get very far.

26/04/2013 at 14:16

Ha! Yes, looked like the whole forum went boobs up for a couple of hours or so there, I couldn't post either. A late cut to a half volley that goes for a one bounce four to point, would still be some improvisation mind...in cricketing terms you must be the offspring of the T20 generation! Would have to be something like this in stance, probably even a little lower, but played with an angled bat and you'd need to be 'checking' the shot (as opposed to the follow through of Phil Hughes here) to get it through point! 

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/pictures/2009/6/29/1246273782313/Phillip-Hughes-001.jpg

I like the random nature of the alternative dreams there - brings a whole new meaning to 'Stick Cricket'!

http://www.sticksports.com/game/stick-cricket/world-domination/

 

27/04/2013 at 10:16

Bitterly cold at parkrun this morning. 'Feels like' 1C according to Garmin in the strong northerly wind. Scanner problems too at the end, so probably going to be at cricket when the official results come through later, but I made it 20:58 as I crossed the line which would be another 15 second PB, and all but a full minute (59 seconds) off in the last 3 weeks. 

 

27/04/2013 at 10:40

Great work Bob, where's that plateau?!!! 
If anyones wondering what Mr V was on about, we are talking about agreeing on a joint approach to Marathon training for our respective autumn Marathons. We have bandied a few ideas back and forth and I have just ordered a copy of P&D to have a look at. So once we have an agreed approach we will post upon here what the plans are. Mr V is running the Yorkshire Marathon, I failed to get a spot yesterday, so I am on the lookout for an Abingdon Marathon spot, it’s the same day so training cycles can be alligned.

27/04/2013 at 21:11

Joint approach sounds good YD, would be interesting to see how you start fitness-wise and if the programme progresses you both the same, or if one progresses more in one area, and who makes the best improvements (relative of course). Ooh....

Well this morning was 3*800, prime example of how I am still learning this type of training and how training is a constant feedback process.

Plan was for 6 minute recoveries. First 800 was good in 2'19.2, but 6 minutes recovery isn't enough for something that intense so the second was a lactic hellfest in 2'27.4. The third was canned after 400m in 73. 

This session has potential, recoveries just need to be tweaked. The first 800 felt pretty good though. I'll try again on Monday. 

27/04/2013 at 21:51

Hi, I am new to this thread and it seems the place i might get the advice i am after.

I am looking to knock my 10k/HM times down to next level. I am currently coming in at 39/40 min 10k and 1.27-1.29hm. I have been running 2 years (though seriously 1yr) and all my times are about 2 mins down on when i started. However i know plenty of guys in that time that have knocked 2/3 times that off in same time. My current training is one long run (12-13 m at circa 7.30mile) a proper interval session (maybe a pyramid or 8 x 3 min efforts say) one med pace run (10 miles circa 7.10 miles) and 1-2 flat out teadmill 5k's (about 19 min dead).

It has been suggested i throw in a track speed session, say 3 x 1 mile at 6.00 min mile pace. Would this or any other tweaks speed up my progress. I am fairly convinced its speed work i need as in hm's the last 5 miles i am flying and my ave pace in 5,10k and hm barely differs. As soon as i drop much below 6.26 pace, over any distance i begin blowing.

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

28/04/2013 at 08:39

DT19 - that’s a recipe for injury and burnout IMO. I would do the following:

Slow the long run and 10 miler down to 8 min miles and slower. Add in some more easy runs in the 8 min mile and slower bracket, say a couple of 5 milers to start with.

Quality: maximum two sessions per week, though I would limit it to one per week until you have the extra easy runs bedded in.
So, the interval session you mentioned seems fine, 3 x 1m is fine, I would also consider adding in some tempo runs and threshold work to help you hold a higher pace in a race. 10 miles at MP (7:00 per mile ish) is fine, something like 5 or 6 x 1m at 10-15 seconds per mile slower than 10k pace with short recoveries of 30-60 seconds would be a good start, or 20-25 mins at threshold, or 4-5m @ HMP would all help you hold a pace. It seems weird at first but running solid efforts at just below race pace (threshold being a bit slower than 10k pace) helps you hold a higher pace in a race.

As for the flat out 5ks, drop those as a weekly session and add them in as monthly time trials to test progress. Might be better doing them outside, do you have a local parkrun? If so use that.

Duck - yea, I have a fair bit of groundwork to do this summer, getting some base miles down and building strength is the priority now.
Sounds a very tough session that btw, and those paces are still impressive to me! I think it would be easier if you had someone to chase, do you have anybody you can use to run that session with?

Edited: 28/04/2013 at 08:41
28/04/2013 at 09:28

YD/Viper - sounds like you're turning this into a marathon thread!  At last I might have something useful to say!!   YD - are you completely over your injury now? 

28/04/2013 at 11:03
Y D wrote (see)

DT19 - that’s a recipe for injury and burnout IMO. I would do the following:

Slow the long run and 10 miler down to 8 min miles and slower. Add in some more easy runs in the 8 min mile and slower bracket, say a couple of 5 milers to start with.

Quality: maximum two sessions per week, though I would limit it to one per week until you have the extra easy runs bedded in.
So, the interval session you mentioned seems fine, 3 x 1m is fine, I would also consider adding in some tempo runs and threshold work to help you hold a higher pace in a race. 10 miles at MP (7:00 per mile ish) is fine, something like 5 or 6 x 1m at 10-15 seconds per mile slower than 10k pace with short recoveries of 30-60 seconds would be a good start, or 20-25 mins at threshold, or 4-5m @ HMP would all help you hold a pace. It seems weird at first but running solid efforts at just below race pace (threshold being a bit slower than 10k pace) helps you hold a higher pace in a race.

As for the flat out 5ks, drop those as a weekly session and add them in as monthly time trials to test progress. Might be better doing them outside, do you have a local parkrun? If so use that.

 

Edited: 28/04/2013 at 11:03
28/04/2013 at 11:04

I agree! (even though you're faster than me DT, your lack of improvement would suggest that you're not allowing enough recovery from hard sessions).

Couldn't work out how to get outside YD's quote!

 

Lost parkrun virginity at Delamere Forest yesterday. A comfortable tempo pace round in 23 and a bit.(Forgot to stop watch.) will try to do the same session weekly now and hope times drop for the same PE as fitness returns. Feeling happier about my running than I have for a while now!

 

28/04/2013 at 12:48

Bob - Well done, another barrier broken. Roll on sub 20

DT19 - You've had some solid advice from YD there. I second all of it.

Minni - Your experienced marathon head can keep us in check then

Chubby - Good to hear you feeling positive about your running again.

Sunderland 10k for me this morning. Conditions were pretty brutal with a very strong wind to contend with. The supposedly flat course is also quite testing with a fair few ups and downs. Given recent struggles I set off very cautiously and clocked a 6.20 for a pretty windy mile 1. Then I ramped things up for a 5.57 and then another 5.57 for mile 3. These miles were reasonably sheltered. Mile 4 was windy again and had a nasty little hill so pace dropped to 6.11. Then the final 2 miles were straight into a very strong headwind and I was completely treading water. Splits of 6.27 and 6.50 tell the story! Anyway finished in 39.22 (for 6.27 on the Garmin). I think conditions were worth alot today. I'd say around a minute at a guess. If that's the case then I'm definitely starting to move in the right direction. I have another 10k next weekend (albeit on a tough course) so hopefully conditions will be a little kinder. My target now is to try and clock a 37:xx next month. Then hopefully I can start to push on back to PB shape.

28/04/2013 at 14:41

Sounds like you're well on the recovery road Mr V. Well done in tough conditions.

28/04/2013 at 19:03

Well done Mr. V, and indeed well done at Delamere yesterday, CB: that's more like it! Was going to say to both you and YP that running is the best stress release there is, and I don't think I could have coped with parts of my career without it!

Was at the Greater Manchester Marathon this morning: quick course, assuming it was accurate (!). 5 women under 2:48, and Dave Norman, having been 2: 25 down to Andi Jones at 20 miles ran the last 6 miles 385 yards in 32 minutes dead, passing Jones and winning by 2 minutes 10. London it is not in terms of crowds, occasion, etc, but having trained on almost all the course over the years it is very flat and potentially very quick should they get some real fast boys to take part.

Still heading in the right direction here but legs are ready for tomorrow evening's massage.

28/04/2013 at 19:28

Do you think it was short alehouse? My mate ran it and his Garmin link showed 26.1 miles, but I just assumed that was Garmin inacuracy?

28/04/2013 at 19:57

DT, welcome along, yeah first thing I would do is slow down the bulk of your running a bit. Drop the flat out treadmill runs and replace one of them with a 30-40 minute tempo run in the 6:30/m bracket for sure.

As YD says I'd stick to 2 quality sessions per week. So assuming 5 days per week take 3 easy days and 2 quality days. I'd take one to be some kind of tempo session (like the one I suggested above, or another take on the steady 10 you do - like 3M easy/6M @ 6:50/m/1M easy) and the other an interval session (I'd keep mile intervals no quicker than 5kp so roughly 6:00/m). Easy runs, for the 3 I'd do 40 mins/60 mins/90 mins and keep the 90 min one slow!

YD, one of the guys at work might be joining me on occasion but we rarely have the same days off. Yeah it is a very difficult session, provisionally I'm going to take 10 mins rec tomorrow for the same session. If only the track had a mechanical rabbit 

Mr V, if you ran 6:50 for the final mile that really tells a story of conditions. Well grafted!

Was working at the Balmoral 15M trail race today, mum picked up a 4th overall female and first jogscotland member home so won some (more) prizes. Had a really good chat with a Salomon rep who was there too so I'm more clued up on the brand now!

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