The Middle Ground

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09/05/2013 at 12:17

Hope to hear you beat it Bob. Seems like you've been working really hard, and even if taking two mins of your PB is ambitious, even if you don't get there this weekend,  you will in due course. Legs feel good after a decent quality 6.5m yesterday which is good news. Plan to celebrate by trying out Chubby's suggestion for interval training after lectures tonight...

09/05/2013 at 13:47

Ive also dipped into the Moraghan thread from time to time...some very useful tips there. Much the same reason for posting on here since much of my running is done on my own and needed something additional for motivation!

Excellent session there by the looks Bob! And great to see there were no further setbacks with the shin! Oh and YD a dirty Leeds fan?  I've heard that Alex Ferguson retired as he didn't want to face the mighty Bluebirds!

Nice intervals Pittsy and hope the progressive 10 miler goes to plan...good luck Sunday if I don't post again beforehand.  

Good racing Mr V! Really need to get to grips with the P&D stuff...haven't really read much into it - despite no marathons planned until Autumn 2013 potentially it will be good to get my head around it's principles, etc!

Hope you hit your planned target with the intervals tonight Tom K. Upping your mileage a bit more (if you have the time, etc) will have a very positive impact on your times coming down i'd think!

Aiming to do a tempo run tonight (7 miles with 3 or 4 depending on how I feel at 10 seconds below 10k pace). Like with many of you, I do get confused with the threshold and tempo meanings hence why Simon's post is really useful....this should be a good session though if I can hit each mile on target pace as I have not actually done this sort of session since March when I PB'd at Eastleigh (that was just about sub 39 Duck! ) what with the revised target paces which will be required.

Will also try an interval session probably next Tuesday (8x800 with 90 seconds recovery)...quite a bit of quality there but managed this in December (just about anyway! ) so will be good to see how things have progressed since!

Edited: 09/05/2013 at 13:49
09/05/2013 at 14:40

Tom - One point that stands out from your post - you mention a 'quality' 6.5 miles yesterday, and an intention to tackle some intervals tonight. Depends on what you're classing as quality last night, but if a significant portion of that run was above easy pace, I think most would caution against intervals tonight - you wouldn't normally do faster sessions back-to-back. Don't risk those niggles flaring up again with overtraining! And aye, 2 minutes off my 10k PB is ambitious, but to put it into context, I have taken 1:40 off the 5k time since setting it. Admittedly 40 seconds of that was the weekend that immediately followed the 10k, but there's been a further full minute off since then. I feel like my training has been generally more 10k shaped than 5k too, but I guess Sunday will prove it one way or the other!

WJH - Nail on the head there I think. With no regular running partners and (still) no club sorted out yet, that Moragahan thread gives me a framework to work to, and this thread gives me the chance to get some feedback and motivation for the training and racing to slot into it. Nice spot with Sir Alex...though aren't Cardiff now the 'Redbirds' strictly speaking?  Good luck with your tempo tonight - 10 seconds below 10k would be approximately LT pace I think? I felt like I had some good gains in the weeks that followed the last couple of similar tempos that I ran, so sounds like a good 'un. Depending on the pace however (presumably 10k or quicker?) your intervals session next week meanwhile sounds like a biatch to me! 

09/05/2013 at 15:13

Does 10s below mean slower or faster? 10s slower would be around LT, 10s faster would make for a really hard 4 miles!!

09/05/2013 at 15:23

Indeed! I'm assuming WJH meant slower! 

09/05/2013 at 15:30

You've spoilt it for me there guys. I was in awe imagining 4 miles at 10 seonds per mile faster than 10k pace then!

I think i have got my head around most of this now enough to make a start, thanks to a currently low workload and a poor internet use policy. Lots of reading around the topic. Now understand all the A, B and C race business as well!

09/05/2013 at 17:47

Bob, my first 5km were at a 5:20min/km pace, and upped it a touch in the second 5km to about 5min/km. I didn't push myself too hard at the end (usually my downfall) and I would have been able to comfortably maintain conversation until the last 2km or so. Maybe I didn't use the word 'quality' in the sense it is usually meant on the site. I won't push myself too much tonight either, I just wanted to incorporate some interval training to keep things varied seeing as I'm trying to up the mileage. Thanks for the heads up though

09/05/2013 at 18:12

Most definitely 10 seconds slower! Honest!  Bob - thanks for reminding me of that...the celebratory fireworks were largely red on Sunday evening too! I say no more!

Edited: 09/05/2013 at 18:12
09/05/2013 at 21:23
Tom Kilbey wrote (see)

Bob, my first 5km were at a 5:20min/km pace, and upped it a touch in the second 5km to about 5min/km. I didn't push myself too hard at the end (usually my downfall) and I would have been able to comfortably maintain conversation until the last 2km or so. Maybe I didn't use the word 'quality' in the sense it is usually meant on the site. I won't push myself too much tonight either, I just wanted to incorporate some interval training to keep things varied seeing as I'm trying to up the mileage. Thanks for the heads up though

I would try to avoid anything but conversation paced running the day before a hard session. If you're out of breath but not into tempo areas then you're into the "junk miles" territory, described by Barnsley Runner (a MG legend!) as the miles that are too slow to be classed as quality work, but too fast to allow you to recover in time for your quality sessions. At the moment I'm deliberately shying away from certain groups at club on a Tuesday night, in case I get sucked into going too fast and then not getting the most out of my speed sessions on a Wednesday.

09/05/2013 at 21:43

Briefly, my evening:

56.1 I reckon, no results yet. Went off too hard, felt like I was pushing too much after 200. Went through 300 in ~40.5 (54 400 pace) but really died in the final 100 and ended up having to lie down for a good 2 minutes afterwards. Just not race fit yet, bit of a disappointment but need to get the really hard sessions in yet before I am ready for a crack. Bit tired after work too I reckon. Onwards and upwards.

10/05/2013 at 13:04

Did someone mention Dirty Leeds? We haven’t been dirty for years, we have become a soft touch and that’s half the problem, we are always at our best when we are in full on bully mode, and make no apologies for it either….

Anyway, I haven’t been running or reading here either, tale of woe bellow, but a cursory read back tells me:

going sub 19, nice benchmark that, means you can start thinking about 38 mins 10ks, I think I went 38:3x after going sub 19 two weeks previously…..just saying.....

CB is back in the game with a couple of parkruns and some of his mad early morning sessions.

Noticed Phil back on his bike (saw a picture of your bike on facebook, old school, nice  )

– great mile time on a grass loop, bodes very well for the coming season indeed.

iower: the impact of hills in a race are hard to quantify. Best way to think of a tough race like that is to think of it as a hard training run that you wouldn’t get anywhere near being able to do in training. The fitness benefits from the run will be enormous, don’t get down about it.
I had a similar experience at a tough 10mile race last year, it didn’t go to plan, but off the back of it I hit some decent consistent training and started to get the rewards a month or so down the line including a 10k pb on a course that was certainly not a pb course.

DT19 – looks like a sound structure, don’t be frightened to drop a quality session from time to time and just do another steady 1 hour run. Maybe aim for three quality session every two weeks to avoid burn out but still get in plenty harder running.
As for 6 x 1m @ 10k, no that’s too hard, 5- 6 x 1m at 10m to HMP might be more appropriate or some of the sessions Simon has suggested would also be good.
Also agree with Simon, slow down the easy running.

WJH – well done on hitting the ‘A’ target at Cardiff.

Mr V –
I have seen some pictures of your race on Sunday on bookface, you were in a couple, do you want me to tag you?

Pittsy78 – nice pace on the intervals. I am a big fan of the progressive 10 milers. Don’t push yourself too hard on the first one and don’t worry if you don’t hit a pre defined pace at a certain point. I would use the first sessions as a scoping exercise, make sure you are hitting MP from mile 3-5 and then wind it up. Its better to finish the first like you could have gone harder and to wind it up a bit on the second attempt at the session.

Tom – the link CB posted up is a good one, use the advice in there and you wont go too far wrong.

Big Bob – nope, not looking good I am afraid, I still like planning training schedules even if I don’t end up using them, it’s the running geek in me 
Good news on the shin, it reads like you have been sensible with it, looking forward to seeing how the race goes for you.

Duck – that’s close to PB form isn’t it? Either way, improved pacing could see significant improvements could it not? Not to mention the next phase in training making a difference.

Edited: 10/05/2013 at 13:05
10/05/2013 at 13:07

Update from me, other than an aborted test run (aborted at 0.5m) I haven’t run since the 24th April, so over two weeks with no running. I got what I thought was a standard cough and a cold, but it just wouldn’t shift after taking it easy for 5 days and after that period I started to get dizzy spells, tooth ache, pains in my cheek bones, head aches, pains across the top of my head when I bend over and lots of weird fluids coming out of my nose ( + the usual snot). To cut a long story short I have a nasty case of Sinusitis and I am now on antibiotics and a steroid nasal spray.
Another slight annoyance is achy feelings coming from my left adductor area (particularly bad on the aborted test run mentioned above) suggesting there are more bumps in the road post hamstring injury than I had hoped for.
So as Mr V has mentioned we have a plan to conquer the marathon based on an amended P&D plan, but before I commit to that I have a lot of work to do. I think there is a strong chance that I wont be Marathoning this year. It all depends on how quickly I can get back to pain free running and build in some mileage. I haven’t run properly since early March and I don’t want to be taking on a Marathon campaign if I can’t run 55+ miles per week pain free before I start the campaign.
I am going on a weeks holiday to Greece on Thursday, hopefully the antibiotics and some sun might get rid of the Sinusitis and then when I can get back I can start to think about getting my running back on track. I might take some running kit with me and have a run or two on the beach, but only if I feel up to it.

I am starting to think this year might be all about base building for next year now..

10/05/2013 at 13:25

Duck – Shame you didn’t hit the time you wanted but its still a very strong run at this stage of the season.

YD – Yeah go for it. I can always untag if they are too unflattering  I guess your priority for now just has to be getting back fit and healthy. The last thing you want to do is go into a mara campaign when you are not 100%. Even if the mara doesn’t happen for you there is still plenty of time to get fit for shorter autumn races and then crack on with the mara plan  after that. From a selfish point of view at least I’ve benefitted from your work putting the training plan together

A reasonable session for me last night. 3 easy, 3 steady and then 4 at something between HMP and MP. Was actually glad of the wind and rain as it meant it was less humid than recently.

10/05/2013 at 13:26

Duck it sounds bloody fast to me! Well done.

YD - sounds like you've been throught the mill. Hopefully it's behind you now. Have a great holiday and don't even think about running!!

10.4 gentle miles last night. Was going to get a cheeky 3 in at lunchtime but stressed 6th formers worrying about exams next week took up the time instead.

10/05/2013 at 13:52

Afternoon all.

Duck - I'm losing track but I'm pretty sure it wasn't too long ago we'd be congratulating you on a blistering time!  Anything with a 5 on it still sounds quick to me.  A good marker for the season anyway.

YD - Sounds tough.  A great time for a holiday!  If it were me I might be tempted to take my running shoes as well.  No pressure either way but a leisurely bimble in a foreign land by the sea can be very refreshing change from the training grind when on less than perfect form.  I can remember a very pleasant (but slow) 10 miler in Lanzarote just a couple of weeks into resuming my running after the hip op.

Since my 67-mile sunny ride on the posh bike on Monday I've managed all of 6 miles of running, lots of walking and little else.  Initial excuse was donating blood on Tuesday, so I skipped track.  Feeble excuse since then, quite frankly, has been lack of mojo!  I'm having a mojo-dip since VLM, not losing much sleep over it, and it'll probably return when I get back into the routine of things with the quicker stuff.

Welcome newbies.  I'll pitch in when I've got my running head back on.  (I think I said that last week!) 

10/05/2013 at 14:32

Sorry you didn't get what you were after, Duck - but I'll concur with consensus of it being pretty damn quick regardless! How was the weather? If the forecast wind turned up, that can't have helped.

An unoriginal but apt observation from song seems appropriate here, YD - if you didn't have bad luck, you wouldn't have no luck at all. Enjoy the break - get yourself well. Hopefully the pair of 10 milers churned out by Mr V and CB can give you some light at the end of the tunnel to look forward to as they continue to get over their recent woes.

Phil being a lazy arse - nuff said. 

Raining when I got home last night, so subbed the cricket nets for a trip to Sweatshop - time to get out of the trails I've been using for all of my running so far. Had the full analysis done and though I shunned the bespoke insoles (£'re having a giraffe, pal!) was quite impressed with the service I got that apart. Bloke immediately identified my right leg as dominant (left leg was the torn quad) and confirmed what I'd already pretty much determined for myself that I've got an essentially neutral gait. Did reckon I've a slightly low arch on the right, and a minor tendency to over-pronate on the weaker left, but was happy that neutral shoes (which I've preferred when trying a few on recently without buying), were most suitable. Then it got interesting. Tried on some Nike Pegasus (soft and horrible), Mizunos (nah), Brooks (nah), and Asics Cumulus that I really wanted to like and were down to £82 from £110 (or so the price tag said at least), but just didn't like the fit - too roomy. Went in with a bit of a prejudice against Adidas after some of what I've read here and elsewhere, but tried on a pair of clearance (£59) Supernova Glide 4, which felt just right, and thus that's what I ended up with. Quick road test round the block when I got home last night and still felt good, so will have an easy 3 miler with some strides this evening, and then decide whether I use them on Sunday for the 10k. Expect I probably will though - realised immediately how heavy the contact has been using the trails on tarmac by comparison.

Anyone have/had a pair themselves and have an opinion on them?

10/05/2013 at 15:08

CB, I disagree that miles in that area are junk. All aerobic paces can be useful. I would define junk miles as those where the fatiguing element outweighs fitness benefits. That would include doing extra miles when you should be recovering, doing faster miles when you should be taking it easy and runninng miles much too slowly.

Duck, sounds good to me. I found it took me all season to nail 8/15 last year. I reckon 400 is even tougher with a smaller margin for error allowed. You'll knock out something special soon.

YD, sorry to hear about the sickness. I know so many runners (including myself) who have had prolonged bouts of illness this past year. Thinking about base building is all very well, but I can't imagine it's much fun for the summer. Have you considered targetting something shorter in the meantime. If you find it irritating that your endurance has suffered a blow perhaps working on speed or strength as it builds back up could make things easier.

By the way, if I were going to amend a P&D schedule it would be by taking it, throwing it away, and replacing it with something decent ( Nah, I'm sure they're great)

10/05/2013 at 15:16

Bob, I worked my way through a pair of Supernovas (had to chuck them when they started giving me a blister, but I got about 800 miles out of them). I got another pair, but hardly every wear them now since they are too bulky. I now do all my road running in lightweight shoes and flats: Kinvara 3, Mizuno Wave Ronin, or Asics Hyperspeeds. I have some sper lightweight Asics Piranhas which I use for road races and hill/speed (i.e. 400-pace) sessions.

A similar shoe to the Supernovas is Brooks Ghost, which I found a bit less bulky and a little more roomy.

What winds me up about Adidas is that their sizing system is out of synch with the rest of the shoe market. I had to get 13 1/2 in Adidas and I'm 12 - 12 1/2 in all other brands.

10/05/2013 at 15:53

Bob – I have had two pairs of Adidas Adios and a pair of Boston’s in my time and have liked them all, not sure about the Supernova, though they do look quite similar to the Boston’s.
These days I wear lightweight/racing shoes for all my running. Brooks Green silence are my bulk mileage trainers, Saucony Grid Type A4 for racing and the latest Adios which I had planned on using for the Marathon, I had used them for long tempo runs and thought they were good. I also have a pair of Asics Hyperspeed, I fell out with those a bit after the GNR last year, it rained during the race and the daft holes on the soles sucked up loads of water and I got blisters as a result. But they are good shoes in dry conditions.
The key thing is the shoes fit properly and are comfortable. The rest is less important, I like lightweight trainers, others like cushioning, just go with what you prefer so long as they are comfy and fit correctly.

Mr V – I will do the tagging tonight when I get home. It’s a chap called David Aspin who often photographs local races and quite a few of my club mates were tagged in his pictures and I spotted you, prf and Hannah amongst them.
As for autumn/winter races, then yes there are loads of good ones to target across the North. After a couple of months of base building I could quickly get into decent 10k – HM shape I would have thought, so plenty of options if I don’t do a Marathon but start to get fit in August / Sept.
As for the Mara plan, feel free to use it, happy to bounce some more ideas round with you if you like. I think following the P&D plan would be a good move first time out for you (and me) but make adjustments to suit, mainly increasing a few of the long runs. What I liked about the P&D plan is the way the plans built over time and the emphasis on supportive MLRs and general mileage. If you follow the structure of the plans I think you will get fit.
Good session last night, that will be good prep for the P&D plans IMO.


Phil – yea, always enjoy running new routes when away from home. Also a good way to scope the area out on the first day of a holiday, fingers crossed I can partake.
Good luck on the mojo hunt, when you decide to go looking for it. In the meantime, enjoy the chocolate sampling…

Simon – yes it has crossed my mind. Either way I need to spend some time building my running legs back up again. Get them used to frequency before I do anything too intense.
Out of interest, lets just assume my medium term goal is to target running fast 10ks – HMs in the Oct – Jan period before getting back on the Marathon horse again next spring. If I were to do what you suggest and work on speedier shorter stuff over the summer, how would you suggest I go about it? What type of sessions, in what order etc?   

Looks like you are nicely amongst the miles CB, though I cant not think about running, I enjoy it too much!

10/05/2013 at 15:57

Bob if you find the Cumulus has too much room you must have some very narrow feet! The Glide is decent, the Adiprene sole does give it a decent feel with good longetivity but I always get the "tacky" feel with Adidas. 

I would second Simon's suggestion of looking at the Kinvara (I have two pairs, it's a great shoe). The 4 has just come out (tried it the other day and I still prefer the 3 FWIW), so I imagine soon the 3 will be available on the cheap. It's got a siginficantly lower profile to the Glide (which is a 10.5mm heel drop IIRC) so might feel strange at first. The only problem is that it's a bit wider than most Adidas shoes.

Either that or check out Inov8's road range, they have a good selection. The Road-X 233 might be worthwhile looking at. 

YD, that's very nasty sounding - get well soon! I imagine/hope that half of what you're feeling is just feeling crap in general and it exacerbating everything else. Enjoy Greece, get some R&R and come back all the better for it.

Phil, given the work you put in before VLM I'm not surprised you've lost the mojo a bit. I imagine prf is still finishing off the McFlurrys he brought following the race! It must be quite a change from the trainign routine beforehand, I personally would just enjoy it for a while and mentally recharge.

So, last night. No times yet but I am putting my time at roughly 56.1 - the clock stopped as the winner went over the line (53.38), and replying it in my head I think 2.7s difference is about right. 

Got a decent start but my mistake was to push it too much down the back straight, trying to keep up with those in front rather than run my own race. By 200m I was already feeling my arms start to tighten which is a sure sign of beginning to tie up.

According to cs I ran a great top bend and at 300m (there was a timer at 300m and I am sure he shouted out 40s as I went past) I was probably 2nd or 3rd. However it was like slamming a door in my face and I just went backwards, my stride shortened considerably and in the last 10m I basically had to throw myself over the line (there was a bit of a headwind on the front stretch Bob). 

I think I need to focus on the first 100m right now and reign it in a bit, as that will directly affect the rest of the race and ensure I don't go through 200 too quickly. I think right now I am probably getting out in about 13.5, which is bang on 54s 400m pace but it's from a standing start of course so it is harder than that. This is where the race simulation 300s will come in handy later on in training. 

Also a shout out to cs who ran the 5000m with just 4 other runners in it. Mentally very taxing, on her own for the entire race (winner was 16:45 and 4th place was 19:40), she an 25:18 which for a solo track race is very good. 

Edited: 10/05/2013 at 16:00
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