The Middle Ground

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14/06/2013 at 21:03

DT19 or have a sex change!

14/06/2013 at 21:06

mildly more drastic, yet instantly rewarding in the WAVA stakes! Let me discuss with the wife!

15/06/2013 at 11:28

Lots going on now! Hi PhilB, sorry about the crash, hope it sorts itself soon

Delamere Parkrun this morning, a comfortably hard 22:20, a parkrun pb and more signs that things are moving in the right direction.

Updated table, feel WAVA should take Alehouses illness and achilles op into account though, I feel a fraud not being at the bottom!


Calculator here:

82.02% PhilPub (Marathon, 2:35:54, April)

80.98% Velloo (5k 18:53 May)

79.47% Simon (800, 2:08.8, May) 
77.35% Wardi (5K 19:52 March) 
73.23% MrV (5K, 17:37, June) 
70.16% Dr.Dan (5K, 20:22, April)

69.22% DT19 (HM, 1.27.07, March) 
67.16%, BBB (5 mile, 34:07, May)
62.34% CB (5K 21:25)

57.16% Alehouse (5K 27:49 March)

15/06/2013 at 15:23


CB: I need 25:30 exactly to overtake you! Nowehere near that, I suspect. However, do seem to be heading in the right direction: managed a slow 40 mins on Thursday and another one today, both off road. No doubt there will be a few hiccups on the way, but generally pleased: there were times when I thought I would never be able to run again, so anything is a bonus, really. No speed as yet, but am being patient: am glad in a way that the charger on my Garmin has packed up!

Must read back, especially re Phil. Have been ridiculously busy for someone who has retired: have been asked to work almost every day until the end of this term, plus have been doing 4 or 5 hours of marking a day! Keeps me off the streets, out of the alehouse, and helps pay for a few bricks of the extension that I am having built.

15/06/2013 at 18:01


Calculator here:

82.02% PhilPub (Marathon, 2:35:54, April)

80.98% Velloo (5k 18:53 May)


79.47% Simon (800, 2:08.8, May)

77.35% Wardi (5K 19:52 March)

73.23% MrV (5K, 17:37, June)

70.16% Dr.Dan (5K, 20:22, April)


69.22% DT19 (HM, 1.27.07, March)

68.76% WJH (5M 30:55, May)

67.16%, BBB (5 mile, 34:07, May)

62.34% CB (5K 21:25)


57.16% Alehouse (5K 27:49 March)

Hi everyone, just updated the table for the first time. 

Phil, that sounds like a nasty crash. Hope you are now on the way too being fully recovered! As for a quieter few months, I think you earned that just a little bit with your dedication towards a great performance at London! 

More good progress from you CB! Good to see!

Great session Bob! You've certainly progressed a lot recently! More PBs ahead I'm sure!

Hi Andrew - you will progress a lot from those times with a bit of structured training!

Cardiff Parkrun today which wasn't good at all..being that its a fast course and I'm back visiting family I thought I'd give a crack of bettering my PB for this Parkrun which is 19 minutes flat. However, it was meltdown after the first mile with splits coming out at 6:01, 6:27 and 6:35...last 100 metres was in 6:30 pace and not even the sub 20 pacer who stormed past with 4 or 5 others could spur me on! Not even when he barked at me to not look at my watch!!!!!! Final time was about 19:42. Although it was fairly windy, I would not use this as an excuse! However, I have had a minor head cold whione oneone one more noticeable during the week and once finished, I felt like I'd been hit by a hammer! Ran into Cardiff city centre at a struggle in over 11m/m pace and have felt totally drained since! Either I need a break, this head cols has impacted on me more than I thought or I'm not doing something right in's may be a combination of all 3! Hopefully it was just one of those days which hasn't happened in a while!

Brothers mate also beat me today despite clocking 22/23 minutes 2/3 months back....whilst my brother has just come back from 17 miles at low 7 m/m pace! In saying that, I'm looking forward to seeing if he can stay motivated to get a good 10k and half time in the autumn! As for me, think ill be resting unless I feel dramatically better by tomorrow!

Edited: 15/06/2013 at 18:05
15/06/2013 at 18:07

Also....good to see the mileage back to good levels YD!...may just take that step of running without the Garmin too Alehouse, think I need to have a few enjoyable runs without it rather than keeping an eye on the pace all the time. 

Edit: sorry for the typos this iPad wants to change every other word!

Edited: 15/06/2013 at 18:10
15/06/2013 at 18:39

Was supposed to be playing cricket today but it was postponed after an absolute deluge. So later on, once the sun had come out, went for a gentle 5k run instead.

Tried to keep to my 'easy' pace (according to RP calculator this is about 9.7kph) but found it very difficult to run that slowly and ended up doing it in about 27.30 minutes (not exact as I haven't yet invested in a running watch! Shows how new to it I am!). So about 11kph. Didn't feel at all tired really by the end of it and felt I could have carried on quite a bit further at that pace, so I'm taking that as a positive sign!

Any tips on how to drag you pace down to such a slow pace on your easy runs?

15/06/2013 at 18:43

AD: hi! You need to be running at conversation pace...if necessary talk to yourself! Slow is the new quick: in other words build a solid base before anything quicker. Someone else has probably said this already: still haven't read back!

15/06/2013 at 19:16

literatin, our stripes are very very very very very very dark blue.

Congrats on the parkrun PB, CB.

WJH, I had a bad cold a few weeks ago and still haven't recovered fully - my HR is about 15bpm higher than it should be on easy runs, so try not to read too much into your parkrun today.
Having said that, I'm sulking thanks to a disappointing 800 today. 2:10.4 (compared to 2:08.8 a month ago) despite being matched against similar ability in the race. I'm hoping it's due to the after effects of the cold - or this injury. If things don't pick up in a week or so I'm going to write this season off completely.

Andrew D, start by jogging on the spot, then start moving forward gradually and you can run at any speed (this is also a good trick for anybody who fancies shifting to forefoot running). I think most newcomers don't appreciate that easy runs should be easy.

15/06/2013 at 20:55

CB-Well done on the pb.

Wjh, you are where I was last week. I did park run feeling a bit groggy, struggled all the way around and 6 hours later I was streaming and only just coming out of it now.

Andrew D- We all start out saying we cannot run slow. I thought it was best to smash every single run. I was routinely going out running 10-12 miles at around 7 m/m pace which for me would be marathon pace. If I got home and had struggled and ended up 7.20 pace I would beat myself up.

I have slowed myself down gradually by about 20 secs a week. Tonight I did 12 miles and came in at 8.25 pace. I probably still have another 15 secs to drop off that for my long slow run. I actually far more enjoy my runs now and have started paying attention to style a bit more as well spending parts when I concentrate on trying to run more on my forefoot etc.

Also, I was useless all weekend in the family stakes as I would slaughter myself often fri, sat and sunday with hard runs. I have not tested my improvement yet, its only been six weeks, but worst case scenario is I have stayed at the same level but done so with far less graft!!


15/06/2013 at 21:02

oh, and finally saw physio Friday. He was not too concerned by my calf issue given it disappears as I run. He was of the view (I cant remember the exact term he referred to it) it was a residual trigger point from something so was not getting full blood flow which is why it eased as I progressed my run. He tested my feet as well and told me I should be running in over pronating trainers.  Got my gt2170's out tonight which have  afew miles left in them and must say I do feel better in the lower legs for it.

Debating whether to get another pair of those or try a different brand of same support shoes. Any got any recommendations? I have always been asics since I started running.

15/06/2013 at 22:12

DT19: initially I would try a pair of Asics DS Trainers. These are basically a lighter version of the 2100 series and designed for mild over-pronators. I found the switch from 21 series fairly straightforward. The current model is number 18 so you should be able to pick up some 17s or 16s with a bit of luck, depending on your size. I got a couple of pairs from Start Fitness recently at almost half price. Obviously there are other lighter weight shoes that will do a similar job: I think Duck was suggesting the Saucony Kinvara. Hopefully he will post to confirm! Also, I am a great believer in having several pairs of shoes on the go. My problem with shoes is never the soles, but the uppers: I cut off the heel tab because of my Achilles issues, which in turn causes issues with the padding.

15/06/2013 at 22:37

Cheers guys, indeed it's exactly how you describe DT, streaming now yet a head cold which was only half on my conscience for most of the week. Today's Parkrun seems to have been the catalyst to knock me right out! Good news with the physio there.

Hopefully things will pick up Simon and you will get the times you want before the season is out. We're you aiming for an 80% WAVA today? 

Talking age graded performance, it's just as well this particular athlete doesn't post here or on any Forums going from one of his interviews I read! Sorry if this has been posted up before but for those who have never heard of him or seen this WAVA before...simply astounding!


15/06/2013 at 22:56

Thanks alehouse, I know a few made suggestions before but couldn't find them.

WJH-Theres hope for all of us there, he started running the age I am now and at 37 was 4 mins slower than me!!! His schedule , other than the pace of the quality sessions, given his level doesn't look too tough.

15/06/2013 at 23:15

Thanks for the advice - I guess it is just a matter of practice. I felt like I was barely running faster than a walk at times today!!

I suppose I am struggling to reconcile the concepts that prior to a race your training comprises, essentially, 2 types of session

1) run the distance of the race (or probably more) on your long runs, but only at a really slow pace compared to the speed you hope to do in the race; or

2) run at the pace you hope to achieve in the race, but only over a shorter distance (tempo, intervals)

and then when it comes to race day you can combine the two and run the quicker pace over the longer distance, without ever having actually practiced it in training!

I know it is the correct way to train, as evidenced by all of you good people you train like that and run times which I could only ever dream of running, but it does seem counter-intuitive to me at the moment!

I guess I won't fully 'believe' the theory until I do it in practice in a race! 

16/06/2013 at 08:08

Andrew - a lot of people think that they should go out and run hard in every session. It always amazes the middle group at my club that I go out with the slower runners week in week out and yet hammer them all in races. "Lots of miles, some of them fast." is essentially the mantra of this thread. Don't worry about the pace of your slow runs, as long as you can talk comfortably. As a slower runner there's less of a gap between your easy pace and race paces, which McMillan doesn't allow for.

Simon - don't write the season off yes. Colds can hit you more than you think.

Alehouse - 40 mins is great considering where you have been. Your commitment to recovery is something a lot of younger runners could learn from!

Little Miss CB had us up at 5:30 this morning. I'm taking her for Chocolate pancakes in the park while Mrs CB is at work, then aiming for 12 miles later.

16/06/2013 at 18:31

12.1 miles done at a nice pace. Was listening to the Parkrun podcast and Marathontalk podcast for the first time, and thread media whore PRF managed a mention on both of them - he got a question asked in the interview on Parkrun and a mention of his exploits in the Cork Marathon on Marathontalk! Good to hear he's still out there...

16/06/2013 at 20:43

Evening everyone. End of a bit of a busy week for me.

Mr V, I wrote out quite a big section then realised I was probably overcomplicating things. I'd stick to the following:

  • Race pace work - start off w/8*800 @ 5kp, and progress it to 4*1M by the time you want to peak.
  • 3kp stuff - same idea, less volume of course. Perhaps finish off with 2*1M or 3*1k.
  • 1500m pace - 400s w/short rest - 2*1k w/longish rest. Icing on the cake stuff!

I'd probably keep a once-fortnightly threshold run too, and 90 min long run w/a steadyish last 15-20 mins (~6:50/m or a bit slower than MP).

Simon, don't give up on the season yet. I've hardly got started yet! What have you run this year aside from the 800 pb? Doesn't sound like - performance wise - the year has been too bad so far.

That's a great session, might give it a shot myself. That final 200 must have been close to flat out? I'd agree close to 2:07 shape - a good predictor is 600 @ 800 pace, multiplied by 1.35. If you can run 94.5 then I'd be confident of 2'07.xx

Simon Edward wrote (see)

Dan, I agree that Duck and I  definitely need a smackdown. I need to get revenge for last year's race.

Bring it on  

Bob, great session, I'd expect a 5k pb soon based off of that. Sorry for forgetting but have you been doing many shortish tempos recently? That would give a pretty decent indicator too I think.

Garmins.... useful as a tool but I don't rely on one for pace. My 5k pb has an average pace of 5:45/m on the Garmin but I squeaked a 17:59 which is 5:48/m.  On the track I use it in indoor mode and use it as a stopwatch, on the road in races etc I use it to ensure I don't go off way too fast.

YD - who are you?  good to hear you are still kicking about and training well

Andrew, nothing more to add to what's been said. Get the miles in, some tempos and forget about the magical interval session for now. You'll improve just by doing something on a regular basis. 

God Phil, sounds very nasty  get well soon!

I've had more good sessions. Today I did 2*300 w/15'00 rec - a good predictor for the 400. Basically I think if I'm splitting 40.00 for 300m and it not being flat out then sub-54 should be possible. 

Ran 39.939.4. I was breathing hard at the end but I wasn't tying up and throwing myself at the line. That 53.xx is close!

Rest week now. I am doing a 4*100 & open 100 Thursday, and am going to run a 600m TT about an hour before as well to see what I can do. I'm parkrunning Saturday for the first time since March  I literally have not had a single Saturday off since! 

As for the WAVA table, while my mile is the highest I won't put it down if the time isn't 100% accurate.


Calculator here:

82.02% PhilPub (Marathon, 2:35:54, April)

80.98% Velloo (5k 18:53 May)


79.47% Simon (800, 2:08.8, May)

77.35% Wardi (5K 19:52 March)

76.67% Duck (400m, 56.64, May)

73.23% MrV (5K, 17:37, June)

70.16% Dr.Dan (5K, 20:22, April)


69.22% DT19 (HM, 1.27.07, March)

68.76% WJH (5M 30:55, May)

67.16%, BBB (5 mile, 34:07,

17/06/2013 at 08:01

Morning all - moved on apace since I was last able to post!

Welcome back to Mr Bump - er, I mean Phil - hope the arm's improving...sounds like you got off pretty lightly considering. 

AndrewD - just one more thing to add on the paces front. Mentally it does take a while to get round the idea of slowing most of your running down, perhaps partly because you see yourself improving and feel fitter doing everything hard. That's almost certainly because any running is better than no running though, and I certainly didn't see a drop off in progress, and arguably the opposite in fact, once I did get my head round the 'lots of miles, most of them easy' philosophy. I'm also a club cricketer by the way - what do you do - bat, bowl, bit of both?

Another good Parkrun from CB, and Alehouse - you're definitely building up nicely again now compared to where you were a few months ago - good stuff. 

Slight off day for WJH, though you can almost certainly hang that on the 'head cold' peg. Bro-JH sounds like he's still making great progress! Thanks for the article on Martin Rees too - incredible what he's achieved as a late starter. There's hope for old gits like myself yet!

Bad luck with the 800m, Si - think you're being very hard on yourself there though. Don't chuck the towel in's only mid-June!

Duck - more swift stuff from you in training, eye-watering in fact! Good luck with the 100m stuff later in the week. The classic tempo is probably the biggest thing that is missing from my training at the moment actually, though I have got one lined up for this Thursday or Friday. Have been doing too much racing to fit them in, and as MrV mentioned a page or two, I've taken the view that racing comes close enough as an alternative, and I did fit in what some might call a 'tempo interval' session recently - 5x1 mile off 3 mins at 10k pace. very little has been at LT pace though, and I do wonder whether that might be the bit of glue I'm missing to pull all the other good work together. My next 5k is a week on Thursday BTW, though 2 days after my big 10k target (same GP series), so might be a bit leggy to do myself full justice.

4.2 hilly but easy-paced miles for me yesterday, and a 2x2 miles session at target 10k pace (6:45) off 4 mins or so planned for later.

17/06/2013 at 13:02

Bob - I do actually do a bit of both, but in the past 2 or 3 years I seem to be used by the captain predominantly as a bowler (medium pace inswingers). Might be psychological but I have already noticed that since taking up running I am noticeably less knackered after completing a longer spell (8 overs last week up the hill), so hopefully it might have the knock-on effect of improving my cricket too

How about you?

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