The Middle Ground

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19/06/2013 at 10:42

DT we don't have a Dad's race, not sure about other schools. Some schools still do non competitive sports days

We do have a number of girls whose names I'm marking. Fingers crossed that in Team GB for Rio will be 3 girls that I've taught.(400m, Swimming and Water Polo)

19/06/2013 at 12:26

DT, I like Daniels' definition best, which is something like "the pace you could maintain for about an hour". That's HMP for elites, but it's more like 10 mile pace for me and you.

I do these runs by HR, which works really well for me. My average HR in both 10 mile races I've done was 185 (92.5% of max).

So, for your classic 20 minute threshold run I try and start around 175bpm and end aroung 180 bpm. That's less than my 10 mile average, but obviously heart rate climbs throughout the race and it matches quite closely what I experience in the first few miles.

"do a 5k and if you are 15-19 mins, deduct 25-30 secs from your m/m pace,"

That ends up being 6:00 - 6:05 per mile for me. Which is pretty much what I get when running to HR, so not a bad calculation for me at least.

"I lso read that the faster you are the more you deduct from your pace. Therefore if you are 20-24 mins the drop between your m/m pace to LT pce is less. The philosophy being that the faster you are the more dangerous it is in terms of injury to routinely push yourself at that pace"

I agree with the conclusion, but not the reasoning. The reason you should drop less from your 5k pace if you're slower is that slower people are racing 5k at closer to their lactate threshold. Remember, when thinking about physiological thresholds, it is *intensity* rather than pace that we should consider. Imagine an extreme example of a runner who takes an hour to complete a 5k - they would be running 5k at their lactate threshold, so would need to deduct zero seconds.

Please be careful with that cough and seek some medical advice. It's my understanding that you can do yourself damage training with certain types of illnesses.

19/06/2013 at 12:29

Bob - I actually used to be an opening batsmen who batted quite slowly and only bowled occasionally, but in recent years my batting seems to have regressed and actually bowling is certainly now my strongest suit. Nowadays I would love the opportunity to play a longer innings where I could play myself in, but I always now seem to come in with only a few overs left and have to swing the bat and sacrifice my wicket in the search for quick runs! That's my excuse for my lousy recent batting average anyway!!

DT - thanks - I am definitely keen to take on board as much advice as possibe! If nothing else so that I  can improve and then don't feel like such an interloper on this thread!

19/06/2013 at 13:38

Interesting read on threshold running guys. I think this might be a missing ingredient with my recent training so will look to rectify this over the coming few weeks. With a 10k a week Sunday what would be the best session to do for this with the time left? How about the 2 x ( 3 x 1 mile; 1' recovery); 15' recovery, with the mile reps run at threshold you recommend Simon? 

After the dodgy Parkrun on Saturday I managed to get out for an easy 10 on Sunday evening. Followed this up with a run with a friend whilst she was on her horse up Merthyr way yesterday...this was certainly one of the hardest run's I have done mentally speaking since the Brighton marathon with the last few starting and stopping due to passing traffic and uphill being particularly challenging...almost 14 miles in total which included some very steep uphill gradients and downhill decents in the heart of the valleys. Pacing was completely irrelevant and time on feet equated to about 2 hours 40 minutes! I technically did a double in keeping with the rest of you as I had to run back and forth to the train station on the way up to her as I left my phone at my parents resulting in about 15.25 miles in total yesterday! Weirdly my legs feel very bouncy today! The head cold which walloped me after Saturday's Parkrun seems to have gone although I did plenty of resting otherwise after having Monday and yesterday off work. Perhaps I was also just tired on the day after travelling back to Wales late on the Friday night.  

Excellent session by the looks Bob...that 2X2 miles at target 10k pace is one I have never personally tried...but would like to at some point! Indeed I am finding it extremely hard to keep up with my brother at the moment and avoided running with him whilst back in Wales! Do you have a target time for your upcoming 10k or are you keeping it to yourself for now?

Looks like an enjoyable day CB and must be great to see some great potential talent on display at your school sports day!

Shame you didn't get the mile time you wanted Mr V - maybe you should have another crack at some point despite what you say? I can relate to what you say though in that it's over too much as I enjoyed the Gosport Golden Mile, I had a similar sort of feeling!

Sorry to read that things are still up and down for you Kelly. Hope a return to form comes about soon!

Edited: 19/06/2013 at 13:40
20/06/2013 at 09:22

Quiet on here.

WJH – Yeah I would do another one if it’s convenient, just wouldn’t want to travel too far. Its borderline whether any sessions now will  increase your fitness for the race. It might be best to concentrate on a session practicing race pace.

Good news for me as I managed to get my job and a promotion to boost. Definite relief... celebrated last night with a session of 2X (5X 0.25m). 60 seconds recovery and 2 minutes between sets. Wind and undulating route always slows things done a bit but was still closer to 5K pace than intended 3K pace. I’m definitely going to make the effort to get down to some club sessions soon as I do feel like I need a group to really push the pace in training.  

20/06/2013 at 11:50

Mr V - it's weird how MD works like that. Trust me 8 weeks of specific endurance stuff and 75s will feel MUCH easier. Back in April I was running 800s in low 2:2x and they felt about as hard as 2:15s are now. 

I think my big problem with miles have been I've been a bit scared to go off reasonably hard at the beginning. At the Union Street mile I went off quite hard from the start and ran really well. So I think often you just have to have a "fuck it" moment and go for it right from the word go. 

Good news about your job 

DT - don't forget if you are running 30 minutes for 5k, that pace is a lot closer to threshold (60 min pace, roughly) than someone running 15:00 5k is. So it makes sense that you would have to slow down less if you are a slower runner to run at threshold. 

As Simon says, 1 hour race pace is pretty much exactly threshold. Someone who runs 60:00 for 10k, and someone who runs 60:00 for a HM are both running at their threshold. It's just that the latter's is much quicker than the former's!

Found out yesterday there's a couple of 1500s on July 2nd at the track. So that's me sorted for July - a 1500, 800, 400 & 200  and maybe a parkrun the 27th if I'm feeling especially sadistic.

20/06/2013 at 18:11

Phil - Fair enough. Good that you're at least looking forward and planning how you will get yourself back into it again anyway.

Duck - and Simon - Thanks for those detailed explanations - very helpful. Has given me plenty of ideas to (re)incorporate the LT stuff into my training once the GP series is out of the way. Not really sure how the Progressive Tempo dropped out of my schedule really - was one of my favourites a few months ago. Anyway, I'm not exactly sure where LT pace is at the moment, but suspect it's somewhere around or just below 7:00 pace at this stage based on my last 'good' race at the end of May, and allowing for what seems to be, and feels like, a bit of progress since.

Decided therefore to progress the tempo I had planned for today. Aiming for 7:05/7:00/6:55. I suppose the final mile at least felt challenging enough, though the torrential rain probably accounted for some of that. Splits actually came out at 7:05/6:59/6:55 and I stuck on a fast finish of 0.1 miles to take it up to a full 5k of distance at tempo - completing the distance in a fraction over 21:30. Compares to my 5k PB of 20:57, and I can't even feel it in my legs now. Pleased with that. 

Mr V - Thanks. Great news about the job too - congratulations! Must be a massive relief to not have that hanging over you any longer.

DT - Yep, still in touch with them, though haven't been able to get down since. Will be joining them next week though, and just mulling over whether I run all 4 races of their GP series, or if I help out and marshall one of them. The membership secretary actually encouraged me to to take advantage of what may be the only opportunity to run all 4 races. Not quite decided yet though. Hope you get that cough of yours sorted soon - no parkruns!

Andrew - Aye. I like opening the batting for exactly the reason that it allows you to build an innings - if only I could remember how to actually convert good starts into big scores!

WJH - Nice man v horse training! And yep - very open about the target for the 10k next week. I'm after 42:00, which is the V40 Power of 10 standard. The lack of LT specific stuff aside, I don't think recent training could have gone any better. Given some decent conditions on the night, I'll be disappointed and have no excuses if I can't hit it as it's a fast, flat course. Wind could be a factor though, as it takes in the notorious rowing lake at Holme Pierrepont.

20/06/2013 at 18:55

wjh- looks like you did not get hit as bad  as I did with that cold.

Bob- Yes, run all 4. If you are still with them next year you will be expected to marshal one. Its the one down side of being in a club!!. Good session there. Sorry, when is this target 10k?

Mr v- well done on the job, was that some kind of internal restructuring or something.

Simon/Duck- Yes, have also read the 'pace you can handle for an hour' description.

Went to drs yesterday and she gave me some antibiotics and said to keep running but listen to my body. I think she knew I was the sort of guy that if she told to simply stop it wouldn't happen so best to find a compromise. Anyway, without the tabs kicking in I felt hugely better today and was on annual leave. Went to gym and did the LT session Simon suggested. Went to level 14.5 for it which is 4.07 km pace so about 6.36 mile which is my best est of 10 mile pace. I felt really strong and loose warming up as well. First 2 reps came out comfortable, 3rd one a bit tougher, then 15 mins interval and the last 3 were more of a slog. I was never at any point heavily out of breath however, though then I am not in a hm. I don't think the point of LT training is to feel like that. Ended up covering 10 miles which is a first on the tmill.

I am starting to feel like another crack at parkrun on Saturday is a possibility now given the improvement in chest in last 24 hours.

20/06/2013 at 19:13

DT - The target 10k is next Tuesday evening. Is followed by a 5k on the Thursday, a 4 miler on the following Tuesday and then ends with a 5 miler on Thursday 4th July. And yes, you're probably right. Would be nice to chalk all four up at least once I guess. Not sure how the races will all impact on each other, but would be a good measure of progress if I could get all 4 races into my 5 RB point scorers, and give the handicap another shunt down.

Good session from you there, I'd earmarked that as one to have a crack at next month. Pleased to hear you're feeling better too. Just don't overdo it too soon, and set yourself back again!

20/06/2013 at 20:30

Evening all - after reading this thread for the last few weeks or so I thought it's time to "delurk" ...

I'm still relatively new to running and I've found this thread extremely educational and motivational - so thanks all for your comments  .  Unfortunately I tore my knee cartilage whilst training for my first HM (Leeds); I needed an operation and have only recently been able to restart easy running. Work and family limit me to 4 running sessions per week and I try to do a weekly core session in the gym. Last week my easy running got me to 20 miles and focus forward is to re-establish my base through easy running only. I will look to do a 10K towards the end of the summer, and hopefully my first HM in autumn.

Once again thanks for all the tips and well done to everyone who's making progress

20/06/2013 at 21:25

Bob - great session. Stick with that for a few months and you'll find that you can sustain any fast pace for longer.

DT  might not have stuck a hard session in there! As good as you're feeling it's all too easy to come down with something again.

jasl - welcome along. Keep building that base and progressing!

So - tonight. Plan was for a 600mTT at 5:30pm on the dot, then watch some athletics and run the 100m around 8pm. I had a good idea of the intensity to run at, so the time would take care of itself. I'm going by the quite accurate predictor of 600TT time * 1.4 = 800m time (anecdotally, 600m @ ~800m effort * 1.35 = 800m time too).

200m splits 28.0, 30.0, 32.6 for 90.6 overall. Felt decent until 400m then really tied up with lactic acid in the last 150. It is so difficult to push the pace on your own! Finished blowing pretty hard, hands on knees, but not flat on my back.

What I am taking from this is I am not 100% race fit yet which is entirely expected. Haven't really started the hard lactic tolerance stuff yet (this was the hardest session I have done so far this year) so once I've done a few weeks I of that I will run again and reassess. Racing of course will find me the last few % as well. If I use the formula above I come out with 2:06.84 for 800, which I'd take for this stage of the season. 

Then the 100 later on. First 30m sucked as usual, once I got up to speed I wasn't loosing any ground. Reckon I ran 12.7 which is pretty good.

20/06/2013 at 22:16

Mr V Congrats on the job

Duck those times seem bloody fast to me! I'm looking forward to what you do when you're race fit!

Nothing to report - no run today as have a toddler who's under the weather, and 2 days on a DofE trip to come. Will take running kit but I'm not holding much hope.

20/06/2013 at 23:38

Bob- good luck with that, a lot of rb ranked stuff in a quick hit.

CB- Forgot to say earlier, 'non-competitive' sports day, whats that about! My son is 3 and in pre school and they did a semi competitive sports day last week! I have this brilliant photo of him and his mate doing the 'hurdles' and simply looking at the desire to be in front on both their faces, I know that competition is human nature.

Jasl- welcome to de lurking- lots of very good runners on this thread that seem happy to give advice!

Duck- I would not normally be in such a rush to ignore my body, however my wife is 38 weeks pregnant and we are off in for a section on 01 July. From experience that results in a good 8-12 weeks disrupted training, therefore I want to take advantage of the fact that as she is on maternity leave and has no baby yet to look after so I am completely free to train as I wish as my 3 year is in day care all day!!

21/06/2013 at 10:16

Thanks to CB (thanks! ) I have officially moved on my Chester mara number to his clubmate. Hopefully I will do Leicester the week after.

Duck - nice session (ouch as far as I'm concerned). You'd have enjoyed the U15 lad running 800m last night - turned out to be a solo time-trial in 2:05. My boy came in at 2:27 (1:11, 1:16) for a 5s PB.

2 x 5M on the bike and 2 x 3.7M running yesterday ... getting there.

Edited: 21/06/2013 at 12:54
21/06/2013 at 20:20

WJH, the session I suggested might be a nice one to do - I've found it a good mental toughener in the past - but I wouldn't do that or anything particularly tough less than a week before the race. In the past when I've run longer I've always found that some short reps at faster than race pace 2-3 days before are good for tuning in. E.g. for a 10k I might do 5 x 400m @ 5kp with long recoveries.

Hi JASL, keep up the good work. It's amazing how much plugging away at the easy miles can bring you along.

Nice 600TT, Duck. Might have to give that smackdown a miss ...    Nice 100m time as well. Do you suffer from your start? Are you going off blocks?

Dan, well done to the lad. There is a 15 year old at my club who was running 2:17 at the end of last season and is now running 2:09. I am rather envious of youth sometimes.

My leg is finally getting better thanks to a good physio session on Wednesday. And tonight's pace/HR ratio was a bit better too. Not at pre-illness fitness yet but getting there. Not sure whether or not to race on Monday yet. I have the choice of 200m, 800m, 3000m, 4 x 400m, or some combination of them. I'm going to run parkrun @ threshold tomorrow and make my decision based on what the pace ends up being.

21/06/2013 at 21:17

Something I was pondering today - which is the best way to measure your improvement as your training progresses? As far as I can see there are 2 options:

1) You do a particular workout and work out your perceived effort and then do the exact same workout a month later and see if your perceived effort has gone down; or

2) you run a certain distance and the do it a month later and see if you run it quicker?

This then got me thinking, would the two measures (PE and time) both go down at simliar rates or is it possible that maybe PE might go down but times won't improve?

Sorry for the waffle, it was prompted by doing a tempo session in the gym last night which tough but something which I'd have never achieved a month ago and this then got me thinking about how to measure how my fitness is improving.


21/06/2013 at 21:26

Andrew D- I was running the Telford 10k in December which is a loop style event. Therefore the lead pack run back the opposite way to me. What was clear was that even though they were top level athletes (sub 30 mins) they were in the same pain as me. My thought is that as you get better, the PE you feel will be the same as its natural instinct to race at capacity, you will just be working at a faster level for that PE.

I would have thought a very good way to test progress would be to run the same parkrun once a month.

21/06/2013 at 22:12

On my limited experience, I agree with DT - up to a point. Racing and comparably challenging quality sessions have never felt any easier than the day I started, and if they do, you're probably not working hard enough. The exceptions I'd draw however would be that perhaps mentally, if not physically, you might be more aware of the pain you can endure than in those really early days so can push more fearlessly. Also, I now find long runs, even those at or approaching my longest distance a pleasure throughout, as I run them at a pace where I can enjoy them. 

JASL - Hello. Hope the injury problems are behind you now, and you can get some sustained training under your belt.

Duck - Cheers, that will be the plan. Another top couple of races from you too.

Dr D - Still looking good there! More good stuff from 'the boy' (c) too. 

Great news, Simon. Hope you get that season back on track.

A sunny, top off morning run at recovery pace, but on the hills earlier. Probably just one more run now either tomorrow evening or Sunday morning with a handful of diagonals on a football pitch back at home, and then plenty of rest to get the legs in shape for Tuesday evening.

22/06/2013 at 11:55

18.32 this morning. First race further than a mile in over 2 months and it felt awful, like I was running through treacle from the first k onwards. Quite windy so bs calculator adjusts to about 18-flat based on those around me.

No doubt about it, this winter I need more miles.

22/06/2013 at 12:48

Andrew, I got a Garmin and  heart rate monitor abot 6 months after I started running and was quite interested in the heart rate / pace ratio (I still am). What is particularly useful is the reporting option in Garmin Connect where you can show your average pace against average heart rate grouped by month. A great way to monitor progression.

I find PE changes according to how much of that type of training I've been doing. In early spring something like 6 x 1000 seems desperately hard. Come July and I lap those sessions up despite actualy intenstiy (HR or compared to race pace) being the same.

What I've always found strange is how elite runners can finish a proper race were they've clearly put everything they have into it and yet not actually look that shattered afterwards. I wonder how much of it is for show (it must be hard for a competitor to destroy you in a race and then see them hardly affected).

Duck, I thought you got some decent mileage in last winter. As a 400/800 runner I think you have to accept that you are probably going to lose some endurance during race season. Your shorter distance times are what you should be concerned with and they're looking really good, so I wouldn't worry if I were you (actually, I would worry if I were you, but I tend to worry too much)

My threshold run at parkrun this morning ended up being 6:02/mile for 175bpm, compared to 6:02/mile for 177bpm before I got ill, so as suddenly as that I seem to have my fitness back. Very strange, but not complaining. Gonna do the 800 on Monday I think.

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