The Middle Ground

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28/04/2010 at 21:19

prf - That makes perfect sense now. As I mentioned, I'm base building right now so a number of the themes apply to me. Thanks for the clarification.

 Moraghan, I see what you mean with volume now. With regards to tempo, as LT takes a more prominent role in race times as distance increases, do you recommend an increase in tempo distance in training (for longer distances) as well? Such as 5M max for a 10k/10M runner, and 7/8 for a HM/Marathon runner. 

Thanks for the intervals tip. I'm planning on easing back into the faster stuff, before thinking about trying a variation of paces within a single session. 

28/04/2010 at 21:47

A well trained runner is a well trained runner - so to a certain extent the volume doesn't change with emphasis - as you're really aiming for a level of fatigue with the session.  (Obviously MP running being the exception).

The way the longer distance runner's schedule would be different would be the scheduling of more sessions of a different type such as HM / MP etc. 

29/04/2010 at 07:43

Morning! (Why do I always fall asleep and miss the juicy stuff )

Just been looking briefly over the wiki page for plyometrics - and I can see the link for short distance explosive running, but can someone elucidate the benefits to medium long distance stuff? Is it just about training your muscles to contract and release more? Ratzer - come and tell me more!

Interesting that you recommend 1000m for 5k reps Moraghan - prf does those at the moment and he is 5k training, I thought a longer rep is necessary for 10k training (obviously Duck is doing both distances so will need a mix)...

Also on trial and error thing and lots of different sessions - when long distance training how do you get enough easy miles in at 50 mpw? I dont think it would be possible on that amount to do MP tempo, fartlek, hills and HMP tempo and have enough in the legs for the LSR - would you alternate weeks perhaps or do your 3 weeks focus thing to get it all into the plan?

Right enough thoughts for now, better get on with work!

29/04/2010 at 08:47

I think the 1k reps are primarily for VO2 development - from reading the 1500m thread (which, by the way, is very interesting and worth a read) it seems like a lot of shorter reps (200/400 @ race pace) are used as well.

This is my week right now (all miles are easy, at <75% MHR):

Mon: 5m -recovery (<70% MHR).

Tue: 8m

Wed: 10m

Thu: 8m

Fri: 8m

Sat: 8m

Sun: 16m

For a total of 63mpw.

I'm probably gonna add hard days in either Tue/Thu, Tue/Fri, or Wed/Fri. 

I also had ideas regarding tempo runs. I was thinking I could implement them into the latter stages of my long run (say, 16m, with miles 10-15 at HMP, with 1m cool down at the end). Either that or do some kind of  progression run on Wed (2m easy, 3m @ MP, 3m @ HMP, 1m @ tempo, 1m cool down). 

29/04/2010 at 09:01

With regards to the 5k reps it does depend on the ability of the runner.  If you use a max of about 5 minutes per rep as a guideline - that may be 800m for some runners but a mile for others.  It's the time at the intensity which largely governs the distance not the reverse.  1000m is usually a good place to start.

In one week you'd typically do 2 quality sessions - again, as a guideline, in a week of 50m you'd be looking to do about 10m of quality.  This can change depending on age / experience.

29/04/2010 at 09:16

Cool great thanks - thats an easy to remember 10/50 ratio!

I have done more miles in the past than 50 (up to about 60) but I've found that the 40-50 level suits me at the moment, so I dont want to be doing too much quality for my miles! Hopefully with doing the easy miles so slowly now I should be able to build a few more on for the half plan, but then I will do less intense quality work anyway since the focus becomes the LSR and an HMP session.

29/04/2010 at 10:13

Thought I'd join this thread as I've always done my own thing based on information gleamed from books and other peoples experiences. I ran for about nearly four years then had a break of 20 months or so due to life changes. No exercise whatever during this time. Never thought I'd bother to run again to be honest but here I am nearly a year back into running.

For me the biggest shock was how quickly I was able to get back within touching distance of my 10k pb. This was achieved by just going out and running most days building up from a couple of miles to a long run of 7!  Pb 44.25, after 4 months of steady running 45.35, similar courses. I think the fact  I progressed quite quickly has given me the incentive to train for a marathon again as after my last marathon my times tumbled.

So thats where I'm at. Started slowly to build up my miles the end of last year to max 35 a week. Seriously started marathon training January building miles progressively. Body seems to have adapted much quicker than expected and peaked at 76 miles. My Marathon is 9 May and looks like I will have run just about 1000 miles this year come race day. Up until the last four weeks all of these have been slow, easy and steady, no races. Have only really started putting in fartlek and tempo runs since then. Only run one marathon FLM2006 in 3.45 when I had been running about three years. Really looking forward to this marathon to see where I'm at. Think thats about it. Have always run to feel and always train by myself.

29/04/2010 at 10:28

Hello Zion! So it looks in a way as you've also been following loosely some of Hadds ideas (but without the HR stuff)...anyway 76 miles is impressive. I wonder if your previous running history means you were able to ultilise 'muscle memory' to get back in shape quickly?

Good luck in two weeks time. What are the plans after that or is it dependant on the time you get? 

(also nosey question are you male or female?)

29/04/2010 at 10:30

I'd agree with the 20% max for 'quality work' and that figure should probably be even more limited as mileage increases, say 15% for 80mpw.

I dont think that it needs too much monitoring though because to exceed these figures on a regular basis would leave you with legs screaming obscenities back at you.

In terms of fitting all the different types of session into a 7 day schedule, well you cant really - its probably better to think of all the various sessions as options rather than 'must dos' and to select what is most appropriate mix according to stage of training/target race etc. A bit like starting with all the potential ingredients that you could possibly put into a cake but you'd probably not include cherries if you wanted the target cake to look something like a Victoria Sponge.

Or, using 14 day cycles, rather than 7, can mix things up with a bit more variety so you might use Tuesday for a track interval session one week and then the following week go and do some Kenyan Hills. There's no one way to get it right, but plenty concensus around on basic building blocks.

29/04/2010 at 10:32
I like the idea of the 14 day...some people use 8 day weeks - remind me how that works again cause it makes my head hurt
29/04/2010 at 11:02

Hi Curly45 I'm a lady aged 45. I've been wondering too about the muscle memory. Will be interesting to see my mara time as it really is a different ball game to a 10k.

Spot on about the plans - if a good marathon will do another in the autumn - have entered Mablethorpe. If not so good wil concentrate on 10ks, as has to be my favourite distance, and maybe do a half before the end of the year. Really depends on how Halstead goes.

Must admit I don't stick to a weekly pattern. I'm very much a listen to my body runner. I know the key sessions that I want to do and really play it by ear.

Talking of which must go for a run

29/04/2010 at 11:22
parkrunfan wrote (see)
In terms of fitting all the different types of session into a 7 day schedule, well you cant really - its probably better to think of all the various sessions as options rather than 'must dos' and to select what is most appropriate mix according to stage of training/target race etc. A bit like starting with all the potential ingredients that you could possibly put into a cake but you'd probably not include cherries if you wanted the target cake to look something like a Victoria Sponge.

Or, using 14 day cycles, rather than 7, can mix things up with a bit more variety so you might use Tuesday for a track interval session one week and then the following week go and do some Kenyan Hills. There's no one way to get it right, but plenty concensus around on basic building blocks.

I'm planning something like this - a 2-week rotation where I hit LT and 10k pace in week A, and VO2 max and a progression run in week B. The ratio of week A to week B is 2:1.

Example, I'm planning on doing (in the 10 week build up), A, B, A, C (recovery week), A, B, A (10M race), C, A, taper. 

That's a rough giude - there's some easier weeks where I add in a VO2 session here and there. If anyone's interested, I'm drawing up a table right now of the 10 week plan, which I can send if anyone wants to dissect it in detail.

Regarding quality:easy miles ratio, I'm looking at about 12-15% right now per week, on average.

Also, hi Zion

29/04/2010 at 12:56

Just worked out my quality miles percentage - I average 16% over the 7 weeks where I have hard workouts (including the 10M race).

I realised I made a big mistake earlier on - I only have 3 weeks (including taper) between my 10k race and the HM, then another 4 weeks (including taper) after that before the Kilomaton. So, the 10 week 10k programme's probably gonna bring me almost to peak, and I'll then drop most of my mileage over the next 3 weeks and make sure I stay in racing condition. A 1 week rest, then 3 more weeks of maintaining peak (including taper) before the Kilomaton.

 It's a shame the races aren't a week closer together, but up here you can only race what's put in front of you. 

29/04/2010 at 19:36

Wow zion I'm even more impressed! As a woman I find the high mileage stuff really hard to get to grips to with (mostly likely due to my non sporty background)!

I wonder does anyone else have any thoughts on mileage loads for women - we do in general seem to take high loads not as well as men...or is that just my view because I find it hard. I know PRF is very robust so can do huge mileage without injury or niggle...perhaps it is more of a background thing rather than gender?

Re-arranged track for tomorrow as my hamstring is a bit tight in one leg and I wanted an extra days repair. Its also my birthday tomorrow so am treating myself to a month pass at the track

Edited: 29/04/2010 at 19:37
29/04/2010 at 20:18

I dont think the high mileage is a gender issue, more of a conditioning over the years scenario.

Whether looking at short timescales, ie a few weeks, or a longer timeframe over years, increases in workload are typically done stepwise with regular pauses to allow the body to build the strength to cope with the new workload.

A runner knocking out 80 mpw with one year of running behind them is at far greater injury risk than another runner doing exactly the same mileage but with 5 years' regular running in the bank.

The former will almost certainly find it much harder work too due to not having a well developed capillary network and appropriate muscle training.

At the top end, the ladies seem to be able to cope with the same mileages as the men so it is probably just a matter of patience to build that 'robustness'.

29/04/2010 at 20:21
But LIz Y does distinctly less mileage than most...anyway its very tough to draw any conclusions I think because there arent enough people to provide data at the top end...
29/04/2010 at 21:38

Hi guys,

I'm just wondering what yuou guys think of the FIRST training schedule. http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/general/the-first-three-day-a-week-marathon-schedule/2493.html

Just running 2 quality sessions a week and a LSR at near MP and doing two cross training sessions a week. This is what I've just finished following in order to run my first marathon in Brighton a fortnight ago. I managed to finish in 3:44 with a pretty hefty negative split so possibly could have gone faster. I was going to continue following something similar for the halfs I've got lined up in the Autumn. Possibly adding an easy run one day as well. But from reading through this thread I'm a bit worried that it's actually a really bad schedule to be following. You all seem to be agreeing that  I shouldn't be doing more than 20% as quality work. Am I better to be trying to follow a different type of schedule? Or because my weekly milage is generally no more than 30 miles (normally alot less!) will I get away with having such a high % of quality work.

 I'm just about to start writing a schedule to work towards a half at the end of Aug so could really do with a bit of advice on this before I start.

 Also when training for a half is there any benefit of running further than 14 miles or so on the Long run? I will hopefully be running another marathon next spring so am not sure whether I should be trying to keep my long run long or to be dropping it down to between 10-14miles and running it a bit faster.

 Sorry, I've only been running a year and need all the help I can get!

Cheers.

29/04/2010 at 21:46

Hi Rugger_Bird - congrats on a great first marathon time!

I wouldnt do such a schedule, 3 days a week is not really enough to cover the basics (easy running and long run) in my opinion...let alone the problems with the long run being too much of the weekly mileage or with the total mileage being below recommended levels!

I cant recommend a schedule because I have chosen to write my own with some steering from guys on here - if you want to go down that route I'm sure we can help

It seems you have some talent for running as shown by your good time so thats definitely a bonus!

On the long run during half training - I  will run up to 20 miles on my half plan - partly to keep in marathon shape, but partly because I strongly believe in overtraining most distances building stamina for the last few miles of the race. 

Am sure others will have thoughts too... 

29/04/2010 at 22:59
Thanks for your reply Curly. The problem I have is my knees don't generally cope with running more than 3 or 4 times a week. Also I have to do the majority of my running on the treadmil as I have two young children. (normally manage to get outside for the long run) so if I do try and run more often as it's on the treadmil I tend to rapidly lose any motivation for it.
I'm not really sure how on earth to construct a programme which will have the right ratio of 'quality' to easy in it off 3 or 4 runs a week.
Could you in theory split each run into sections so you have part of each work out at a higher intensity but the majority of it at an easy intensity.
Am I right in thinking the LSR is not counted as a part of this 20% and quality session is refering to intervals and tempo runs, hill reps etc.
Do any of you do any form of crosstraining as part of your schedules then? And if so what kind of work outs do you do?
Cheers.
29/04/2010 at 23:05
PRF. What are Kenyan hills?
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