The Middle Ground

Bread and butter pudding with icing on..... might just catch on!

If you want to burn fat to lose fat obviously you have to get a pen and paper out and work out the most efficient pace / duration combination to burn the most TOTAL FAT CALORIES.

Which, of course, is a different thing than trying to improve fat utilisation for a marathon.

Mr Viper wrote (see)

What are peoples views on how quickly it is ok to increase mileage. I've been running for around 18 months and worked my way up to around 40mpw at the beginning of the year. In the last month I've been avergaing around 55mpw. I was intending to give myself a further 2 months at this mileage before steadily increasing again so I hit 70mpw by September time. Is this an appropriate timescale or too much too quickly?

Mr Viper

There are two issues here - one of intra-year increases and how they are managed and the other is how you apply the quality training to increases in mileage.  Then you have to factor in your running experience and the method you use to increase mileage.

Although your approach seems conservative (and it is in structure) it represents a jump from 40 to 70 in one year.  If you are accompanying your training with proportional increases in quality work then I would say that's aggressive.

If you think about a multiyear progression an experienced runner may look to increase by about 10 miles year to year.  It takes a long time to really be sure that a volume increase and quality work increase is the right thing to do.  It's not a case of what is possible, it is what is optimal and makes you quicker.  That's personal so there's no easy answer.  At the end of each season there is always the question - where and how do I progress from here? 

Similarly, if you were to add in 2nd runs on some days (which I like to do for reasons other than mileage purposes) then I would say it is okay to increase a bit more aggressively.

Sorry, that was just an unhelpful ramble.

Thanks Moraghan - very helpful. My initial feeling was that my mileage increase would all come from easy miles. I currently do two quality sessions a week, both with my club (total quality miles around 14) and I think that currently the proportion of quality miles to easy is a bit too high. By the time I reach 65-70 mpw this would be about right?

Would you recommend adding second runs on some days then as I approach 70 mpw  (or even before?)- what is the benefit of this? I'm moving house soon so running to work would be an option to get a morning run in, in addition to an evening one. Alternatively I could fit the 70 into 6 individual runs but would this be less useful?

Mr Viper

I think your thinking is backwards.  If you feel your quality component is too high then reduce it - don't increase your easy mileage to justify it and make the sums work.  If I were you I'd increase volume / quality gradually and in proportion (which means at your current mileage reducing it) whilst listening to your body and see where you end up.  I doubt it will be 70, but if it is then at least you've done it methodically.

2 runs.

In terms of training effect (for a marathon) one a days are better than splitting it up - assuming you are recovering sufficiently.

The reason I like 2 a days are as follows - and they have nothing to do with the goal of increasing mileage although that can be a byproduct.  But the 2 a days would be additional for a marathoner.

1.  On quality days.  There is an Italian study that showed that percieved effort is lower in a session done 4 - 6 hours later than a run of about 30 minutes compared to no run at all prior.  Apparently the earlier run results in more production of HGH which can reduced perceived effort or perhaps actually true effort.  (A sleep of 30+ minutes also results in more HGH production by the pineal gland as well).  So the purpose of this would be to improve your quality workouts.  Anecdotally I have found a run of 2 - 3 miles sufficient and you will note many Kenyans run 3 times a day - each run seperated by 4 - 6 hours.

2.  The day after quality days.  Renato Canova has described his research that a run the following day after a quality workout helps to reduce resting lactate levels in the blood to a level lower than if you hadn't run.  He says these should be done @ 80% of MP.

On these days I try and maximise the time between the early run and main easy run because maximising rest and recovery is the priority.  It's important to remember that making the 2nd workout easier and maximising rest are two different things!

* All the above assumes you are fit enough of course!

Edit: x-post with Moraghan. 

*whistles*

I know I should really cut the quality work a little bit at the moment. My issue is to do this I'd have to drop a club run which I enjoy  and helps alot with motivation. I guess I could drop 1 of the club runs until my mileage is a bit higher and then reintroduce at a later date.

Moraghan when you say you doubt I'll end up at 70 do you mean it's likely to be less mileage? I think once I move house at the beginning of July I'll run into work (about 3 miles) on the days when I have a quality session in the evening and see how I get on with this.

There is lots of anecdotal evidence around this idea of an easy run earlier in the day before an intense workout/race.

It can seem like you're just imagining it and just having one of those 'purple patch' days.

Even easy runs of as much as 10 miles in the morning before an evening race seems to lead to a better performance than doing nothing beforehand.

I seem to remember Mike Gratton running one of the fastest legs of the National 12-stage relays one afternoon after doing an am run of 22 miles! (Feel free to correct this, Mike, if you're reading )

However, I'm a bit stuck since I do my track sessions between 7am-8am - its a bit tricky getting the easy run in 4-6 hours earlier. Ah well, at least I get the track to myself......

I'm going to try and make do with 1 run per day for as long as possible - eke it out in terms of time/distance as much as possible before adding in more runs.

Anyway, I've been thinking about how to tackle my 10k race. I've been prioritising quality sessions in terms of the main determinants of a 10k race. Here's what I've come up with so far:

Priority 1: LT development (tempo runs)

Priority 2: 10k pace development (through longer intervals of abotu 1.5 miles)

Priority 3: VO2 max (as discussed previously, kilometre repeats at 5k pace)

If I had longer than 10 weeks I might have focussed on each aspect for longer, but right now I have to hit what's going to make me improve the most. If I have more time next year I might do month cycles where I focus on each in turn.

parkrunfan wrote (see)

Even easy runs of as much as 10 miles in the morning before an evening race seems to lead to a better performance than doing nothing beforehand.

The Duckinator wrote (see)

parkrunfan wrote (see)

Even easy runs of as much as 10 miles in the morning before an evening race seems to lead to a better performance than doing nothing beforehand.

Is this true? I might try this before my 10k in May. But not as much as 10 miles, perhaps 2 or 3.

Indeed, certainly dont overdo it until you know what you can handle and how it works for you.

And also remember that this is in addition to the 2-3 mile warm up in the hour before the race, that would typically start at easy pace and gradually build towards 10K race pace at the end.

So you'd have something like a 12-13 mile day there.

Curly45 I noticed in your schedule you have a parkrun planned for Saturdays. How do you run this?Do you use it as a time trial?Or is it more a social run?

The end of last year I did several parkruns but due to being a bit competitive I would always race them. Stopped when upping the mileage but  have now started doing them again. Question is should they not be raced especially if doing them most weeks?

Mr Viper wrote (see)

I know I should really cut the quality work a little bit at the moment. My issue is to do this I'd have to drop a club run which I enjoy  and helps alot with motivation. I guess I could drop 1 of the club runs until my mileage is a bit higher and then reintroduce at a later date.

Moraghan when you say you doubt I'll end up at 70 do you mean it's likely to be less mileage? I think once I move house at the beginning of July I'll run into work (about 3 miles) on the days when I have a quality session in the evening and see how I get on with this.

You could reduce one of the club runs in length.  If you want to keep the quality then do so - these are just guidelines anyway.  But for these discussion purposes we should endeavour to start with best practice and then adjust away from that!

I would think it's likely to be less than 70 - purely because 0 to 70 in 18 months is a fair test of the body.  At some point you're going to have a month when everything gets slower and a bit more of a struggle - we all do and it's all part of the training process, so it's unlikely to be a smooth and linear increase in mileage.

No doubt you could go to 100 this year and get the workouts done, but at the end of the day all this training is for performance.  If you race slower at 65 miles a week than at 55 then all the theory in the world means bugger all and you should go back to 55.  You may reach an optimal balance for 2010 and if so, stay there.  By 2011 your optimal balance will likely be higher.  What's optimal balance?  That's the art of running.

And that's why this thread is a great idea.

I'm sure there is a pretty large group of 'middle ground' runners who actually enjoy the discovery/experimentation as a never ending fascinating journey.

I think this group is pretty much uncoachable in the traditional sense of just doing what they are told because they want to ask questions, look at things from another angle, understand the logic of whats going on etc etc Its the 'What Ifs?' that are intriguing and fun and if someone has already had the same 'what if?'  and can provide some input, all the better.

There's plenty of this type of discussion on the sub 3:00 thread but its not restricted to a certain level of performance, its more to do with the facination of wanting to test your own capabilities through experimentation.........

Some people want to buy a shiny new car from a showroom and just put petrol in it whereas others buy a car and deconstruct it to see how it works, change parts to improve performance etc

Whereas Moraghan would buy the shiny new car and just put petrol in but spend hours in the kitchen with his mixing bowl trying to perfect his next fruitcake....

A fruitcake writes...

I think many runners go through phases.  For 4 years I was happy with my progress running lots and doing whatever sessions my club had down.  Then my progress stalled and I had a coach for 2 years to work on my marathon time.  Life circumstances then meant that it was hard to commit to the sessions he was setting so for the last 4 years I have used knowledge from my coached period and what I've picked up from forums for training purposes.

It can be hard to tread a line between doing what you wish, honouring club commitments and sticking to a philisophically sound programme.

Even with Hilly, I need to keep reinforcing the logic of what her coach is setting her and why she doesn't `need more miles' because that is her default training style.

PFR - for years I've never had coaching mainly because I find it hard to stick to what someone else tells me to do.  I've always been a mileage queen worrying that if I drop mileage I'd lose fitness.  My running has been mainly focussed on marathon training so I built up to running twice a day seven days a week with the odd day of rest when the body felt like it rather than planned in.  This worked for a long time with improvements, but the last few years I've felt tired and stale with this approach and now feel that to make further improvements I do need someone else to unlock some parts of my running that I don't seem to be able to do myself.  Besides the coach now setting my sessions I also still need BR to keep me in check as I'll sometimes say I want to go for a long run  What I think I'm saying in a clumsy way is that sometimes when you think you've done as much as you can by training yourself you may need to call on the expertise of a coach who may well bring a fresh approach to a stale running life.