The Middle Ground

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26/09/2011 at 16:25

Duck, how are you planning to deal with two MD sessions/races this month, then a 10miler next?

I'd agree with Simon on the 2:45.  Gotta be a rest somewhere, and just because a 400 is even shorter that doesn't make it easier!

26/09/2011 at 16:34

I'm going to rearrange my training a little so that rest weeks either are on, or directly follow my races, with nothing but very easy running or rest the days around the races. Thankfully they are all spaced out almost perfectly so it shouldn't require much changing.

Points taken about the 400. Even if they ask me I shall say no. It's not a priority. 

26/09/2011 at 16:46
YD – Yep sure is as I’m definitely doing Brass Monkey assuming I get a place. Best of 3 smack down then!
26/09/2011 at 16:50

I'm doing Brass Monkey too, assuming I get a place. I think sub 1.30 or bust.

I'll lose on the smack down... unless, we're doing it by WAVA and then I might have a chance. Ooh, I'll be 35 by the HM too (not sure if that counts for or against me).

26/09/2011 at 17:04
I plan to be at BM as well ... 90:06 last time and that "06" has been bugging me - that PB needs demolition while I've still got the miles in my legs!! I think Kelly's lack of a Y chromosome against my extra 10 years of decay should make the WAVA competition a little closer ... although 86:07 to match 89:59 still seems pretty tough to me. Nice to have a target though.
26/09/2011 at 17:16
Hmmm I need a 1:20:10 to match that then. You never know...........
26/09/2011 at 18:25

I think I need 1:28 at Cardiff just to get into the 70s.  I don't feel like I'm in that kind of HM shape.  Certainly not got the base mileage I intended.  I could really do with it being two weeks later.  Still, 1:20 is a target for next year, so gotta see where I am...  Those extra years you've got, DrD, are really hard to catch up!  It'll be another five years before I get to where you are!

Today was a rest day for me.  Intentional after going to the well on Saturday but finding out the bucket had a few holes in it, then gently bimbling through 13.3m yesterday.  Once again I'm at that stage of running where my legs are itching to do something, which often means they need a rest.

I had a bit of a thoughtful moment yesterday, following on from a couple of thread messages and earlier bits that people had noticed.  It appears that a hard run can get your body primed for another hard effort in the same day, but once a certain time has passed, or maybe sleep has come, the body decides another hard effort isn't required and instead switches to recovery.  Once recovering, it doesn't want so much to be disturbed.  So yesterday I found my legs protesting the miles even though they were easy, when the week before they'd come really easily.  So now the question turns back to whether it is of greater benefit to listen to your protesting body and recover, or there are benefits to be had from unrecovered mileage.  Is it better to do the long miles when you're knackered, and the hard miles when you're not?  I don't know.  I do know that I ran the long one yesterday on only a cup of coffee in the morning, and had no lack of energy or thirst issues, and likewise no gut discomfort issues at all.  I'm confident I can go further without fuelling beforehand, but not yet too confident that I could go fast.  HM breakfast is lining up to be a banana and a cup of coffee...  And a lie in...

26/09/2011 at 19:24

Ratzer, I've probably missed the pertinent conversations and messages, but surely you wouldn't do 2 hard runs in 1 day? Or even a long run and a hard run in the same day?

I sometimes feel knackerd in the mornings, do a light 4 mile easy run, and then can hit an effort session in the evening, but wouldn't attempt either of the options in paragraph 1.

But maybe I'm just soft core!

Just found out that the club I used to run with, that I got frustrated at noone being within my time for 10k by about 5/6mins, just had a newbie join who does 31mins!

The idea of him  and the next fastest guy being a 41min 10k man trying to get a mutually satisfying run together is an amusing one!

Edited: 26/09/2011 at 19:24
26/09/2011 at 19:57

Stevie, if you're BR you win a parkrun in the morning and represent your club in a relay in the afternoon.  There's also a bit of background on the thread to suggest that a double improves the quality of the second run, though there you're looking more at an easier few miles early, then gap, then race.  Though it's also been reported that an early hard run (not too long) can improve a later race, including, reportedly, by Mr Gratton, once to be found somewhere round here.  So the background is there that anecdotally an early (controlled hard) run can improve a later race.

But then a race is not a regular training event, unless you're using it as one, and therefore the double hard would rarely apply.

The corresponding anti anecdotes appear to be that leaving it too long from the first hard makes the second worse.  The biggest example of that might be prf's VLM the day following a hard parkrun, which I hope he won't mind me raising as an example, because it's too late now...  And my example which made me think of it, running long the day after a hard.

My contention is that there seems to be a window of opportunity, where you can go hard-hard, but I would do it less often than normal racing, and on the shorter distances.  The area where it might apply best is sprint to middle distances, where you definitely see the double hard day.

Time to go back to your ex-club and attach yourself with a bungee cord to newbie??

26/09/2011 at 19:59

Ratzer, I sometimes feel like I could do a second hard session later in the day, but I soon get fatigued trying to anything strenuous. I rarely do doubles, but I have found that a short easy run in the morning can make a positive difference for an evening run.

I think I overdid it last week. Even after having a complete rest yesterday and 1 mile recovery jog this evening my legs are buggered. I'm not worried about having an easy week; I'm just dreading not being able to eat as much. I might even have to go swimming or something.

26/09/2011 at 20:13

Nicely put Ratzer.

I doubt the newbie will stick at my old club very long...i expect he'll go to a club like Windsor or Belgrave who have top class runners.

26/09/2011 at 20:22

Ratzer the window will depend on your recovery rate actually. I can do back to back hard days but I always struggle with Tuesday's session after a Sunday long run and a Monday slow easy, when I do a double on Tuesday (with the session later in the day) I seem to struggle less, but its still harder than it should be because my recovery from Sunday usually takes place the day after the day after.

Its a bit like hair of the dog too - it postpones the hurt but its worse when it happens...the best way I suspect would be to have a small drinking (um I mean running) session the first day and follow that with a bigger one. 

4.2m @ 9:18 for me this evening in the rain. Took it very slowly - the pig was there on the way out but gone 20 mins later on the way back.

26/09/2011 at 20:45

Ratzer - The Mike Gratton example was that he ran the third fastest leg in the Southern Relays, going faster than many internationals in the process,  on Saturday afternoon after popping out on Saturday morning for a 22 miler.

My parkrun before VLM wasnt an example of a particularly hard run, it was around 18:40, but was still a little swifter than it should have been. I was running with Curly, who was 2nd overall and the only chap in front of us was someone who had apparently been telling everyone that he just had to turn up to win. It was like a red rag to a bull, VLM or no VLM

But certainly runs earlier in the day  improve later sessions/races as long as they dont include any straining.

Curly - At least you got to see the pig. The plan was to use the original pig, which has been in storage for 35 years, but on testing last week it was found to be non airworthy! 

Edited: 26/09/2011 at 20:48
26/09/2011 at 20:50

I'm one who needs a easy day (Wednesdays run is often bad after a Tuesday session). As Curly said I  think it's due to personal recovery levels more than anything. I think we've all known for a while BR isn't human which is why he can do that sort of thing.

I went to the gym tonight... buddied up with a weightlifting friend who does a bit of running every now and then, so he showed me the ropes with lower-body work. Made sure I didn't do anything too exerting first time, and I'm not feeling too bad right now (although proper judgement will wait until tomorrow!). Lunges, squats, quads, hamstrings, some exercise to do glutes (can't remember its name) in about 90 minutes. We're planning to make it a weekly thing, when it comes to my strength phase we might do twice a week. But a good workout for the first time. 

26/09/2011 at 20:51

That guy sounds an arse prf, shame he still won then!

Reminds me of a low key 5k I won once... i was doing my laces up listening with high interest to some cocky kid, who won the previous year's race,  boasting to the local press that he was going to win, and in a record time!

As we left the field the race started on, about 400metres in, his dad shouted "it's in the bag son", despite me being neck and neck with him, and them having no idea at all about me! How arrogant.

Long story short...i dropped him early doors, and he trawled in 4th!

No "Interview" to the press afterwards

Edited: 26/09/2011 at 20:53
26/09/2011 at 20:54

By the way Stevie I love "soft core" just have to be careful who you use that in front of since hard core has other non running conotations

I think PRF did win the race - he was in second with me but just zoomed off to trounce the guy. And actually he wasnt being arogant (that guy) - any other week before and pretty much since he would have won. Thats parkrun for you though. 

Edited: 26/09/2011 at 20:57
26/09/2011 at 20:58
Stevie G . wrote (see)

That guy sounds an arse prf, shame he still won then!


He didnt

Just look at the turnout.......

x-post: Thats very true, Curly.....except the day Bertie turned up and lapped the entire field.

Edited: 26/09/2011 at 21:00
26/09/2011 at 20:58
Ratzer wrote (see)
Those extra years you've got, DrD, are really hard to catch up!  It'll be another five years before I get to where you are!.

Enjoy the young legs while you can! Make the most of them before they start falling apart!
26/09/2011 at 21:03

Geez prf, what's with such a tiny field? That must have felt bizarre.

I look forward to trying Black Park another day. I'll be interested to see if I really did get it on a bad day or whether I subconsciously eased off/wasn't at full 5k mode.

26/09/2011 at 21:08

Stevie - It was downtown Tottenham, the only people generally found running around there tend to have blue flashing lights chasing them. It went down to 8 attendees not long after. Thats the fun of parkrun, whether its 8 at Pymmes or 800 at Bushy, variety is the spice of life.

In fact, just had alook at the turnouts and it has had an 8 and three weeks of 9 attendees. It was back up to 14 this last Saturday with a winning time of 23:12.

Funnily enough, it is one of the fastest courses around.....so if you're looking to clock up a parkrun win for the hell of it........

Edited: 26/09/2011 at 21:12
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